Playing from one tee into the fairway of another hole?

[TEPaul]

I was just writing a post on another thread which had a photo of Oakmont from John Vander B. and I was taken aback by the total lack of trees from the way I remember it last time there (2 years ago) after plenty of trees already had been removed.

And it got me thinking of what may happen on certain holes after massive tree removal programs on various courses where unintentionally for certain players the better play may be down another hole (particularly off the tee) to play the hole you're on. I guess what I'm asking is if massive tree removal on certain courses doesn't unintentionally create that kind of "Lon Hinkle" thing and if it does is that a bad thing?

I swear, if Oakmont doesn't take the beginning of the fairway farther out on #11 there may be players who play the approach to #10 green from the front of #11 fairway. I saw some kid do that in the state amateur but of course that massive tree was to the left of the 10th green which didn't really concern him since he only had a short iron from down there. Is that enormous tree gone too?

Another example is players in the Open can miss on #3 way down long and left of the church pews into the beginning of the 4th fairway and those massive trees are no longer there to complicate playing from there up to the 3rd green.

Who can think of examples of where tree removal has opened up these kinds of opportunities for perhaps playing holes just as well from fairways other than their own?

And is that a bad thing? It sure must happen plenty on some of the very old treeless out and back linksland courses.

[Jim Sweeney]

Ceratinly it can be a bad thing from the point of view of safety, particularly in an Open with 25k spectators roaming around.

For day to day play, it's probably fine unless doing so defeats the intended strategy of the hole, in which case making the other fairway OB is a possible answer. At my home course we do exactly that on the fourteenth, which roughly parallels the ninth. Playing down the ninth shotens the hole considerably. The OB applies to the tee shot only.

Another option would be to plant a 25 foot tall Hemlock in the middle of the night, taking away that option.

If the committee permits playing down the fairway of another hole, and doing so successfully significantly simplifes the hole, the penalty for poor performance should be severe.

[TEPaul]

Actually, I can think of an example that's apparently been corrected now (by tree placement) where it definitely was as good or better for the long player to play down another hole. That was to play the 7th hole at Inniscrone by bombing a tee shot off #7 tee right down the 3rd fairway. I guess it's just shorter to the par 5 green that way even if both ways are somewhat blind.

This is probaly something of an inherent problem for holes that elbow together.

Paul Cowley:

Too bad the range and the 1st hole got switched at Newark because I had one helluva a design worked out for how to prevent bombers from going down into #2 off the tee on that other 1st hole. The green on #1 would've been severely banked left to right so there'd be no way the bomber going down #2 could get on it (or frankly even see it that well) and even if the bomber was in range on the 1st fairway he might need to just play right of the green and chip or pitch back up. It was a form of my original "play-back" hole.  

Actually, I got the idea from my recollection of Fireball Roberts's unique strategy on the old beach/road track at Daytona of breaking his rear end loose much earlier coming into the old north turn and power-sliding up to the top of the turn and just cutting drivers off on the lower groove on the inside of the turn by just bombing straight down off the top of the turn's bank.  

These things are just like humor, Paul, you gotta get 'em wherever you can find 'em.

[TEPaul]

JimS:

In my opinion internal OB is never a good thing. It is an answer, just not a very good one. We used to do that in the A.J. Drexel Paul tournament at my club but the problem became where the OB line was. Obviously we called it the other fairway for definition but what about the player who missed that other fairway who was in its rough with a shorter route than a good drive on the hole he was playing?

[JSlonis]

I encountered this issue while playing in the NJ Mid-Am this year at Somerset Hills on hole #9.  There are a group of small/medium height evergreens and other varieties just up and to the left of the tee.  I'm not sure if other trees were ever taken out of that area, but currently there are a bunch of out of place apple trees further up the left side that were recently planted on the dogleg short of the cross bunkers.  These new trees however have absolutely zero effect on the longer player from the tee that hits it high enough to play down the first fairway. I think during normal member play the club discourages this strategy for saftey concerns, but during a match play event all restrictions were off.

The difference is huge for the player that can hit the ball into the first fairway as opposed to hitting to the normal 9th fairway, and then playing the hole from there.  For myself it is the difference of hitting a Driver over into the 1st fairway and then maybe a 4-6 iron into the green as opposed to almost always having to play it as a 3 shot hole the normal route.  It was interesting that the officials watching our semi final match saw my play from that tee down the first fairway, and before we reached that tee in the final match, someone had walked ahead and put the tee markers as far left and back as they possibly could to discourage that same play again.  Much to their dismay, my opponent and I just teed it a bit higher and as far right as we could and bombed away to the same spot as before.

In stroke play qualifying for the Met Am a couple of years ago also held at Somerset Hills, they set up an internal out of bounds for the first fairway from the 9th tee for those rounds.  I personally can't stand internal out of bounds...it's all the same course...you should be able to try and make a score from anywhere you wish.

Tom,

Where on the course did you have this issue at Gulph Mills?  I can't recall any shortcuts that I may have missed.

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

Every time I see the sign on the 3rd tee at Seminole stating that the 4th fairway is out of bounds gets me to wonder how much shorter and potentially easier the hole would play going that way.  

Your suggestion and the usage of the 11th fairway on the 10th hole at Oakmont by a contestant in the Penna Amateur is a solid one.  An approach from the 11th fairway would be hitting more into the right to left slope of that green potentially enabling a player to stop the ball better.  I agree though that in US Open conditions, it could cause some real issues.  Although Mr. Hinkle didn't have a problem doing it at Inverness.  

I grew up on an Alex Findlay course in Maryland where the final hole HAD an in course out of bounds on the right.  The club removed the white stakes about five years ago and I have since played onto the first fairway to get a  better angle to the back left hole location with success(it's the only hole location where you would try drive).  

[Rick Shefchik]

I agree about internal OB -- it's a bandaid for short-sighted design. Liability issues might mandate that the club try to route play down the intended fairway, but that sure defeates the width/options ideal we seem to like around here.

And, really -- are you going to keep all that many balls out of the adjoining fairway just because you put up some white stakes? It sure doesn't seem to keep balls out of adjoining driving ranges or streets.

[TEPaul]

Jamie:

That one is noticeable and a very fine example (another instance of two holes elbowing together). I'm definitely not sure of it but I think that problem on that hole may not have been Tillinghast as much something later but I could be wrong about that.

[TEPaul]

"Tom--
Every time I see the sign on the 3rd tee at Seminole stating that the 4th fairway is out of bounds gets me to wonder how much shorter and potentially easier the hole would play going that way."

Adam:

You're kidding?! It sure never used to be that way. I mean I love clearing a course out and such but in the old days there were a ton of something like sea-grapes way down past the bunkers on the right of #3. There was no way anyone would've thought of going up into the 4th fairway maybe because that area of sea-grapes was so large. If some are thinking it's an alternate strategy to go at #3 green up #4 fairway I suggest the club re-establish those sea-grapes. Those things grow down there like wild-fire. In five years they'll scotch the 4th fairway strategy for #3!    

[A_Clay_Man]

I think its a bad thing, to stop anyone from doing anything, under the rules, by solely planting trees. It leads to a proliferation of a sophomoric solution in many other situations. Culminating in what that old greens chairman said to you about not knowing what they were doing.

[Adam_Messix]

Tom--

Unless I was seeing things, there is definitely a sign on the 3rd tee about number 4 being OB.  I will call an appropriate authority later this morning to make double sure.  Looking off #3 tee, there isn't much to the right except for exposed sand and the ever present banyan trees that are not to be tangled with.  

The more I think about it though, in using Oakmont #10 as a reference.  Playing down #11 would give you a chance to play your approach into some of the slope of the green.  However, playing down #4 at Seminole on #3 would leave an approach shot that would have you hitting along the right to left slope of the green and you know that missing the green left is absolutely no good.  

[TEPaul]

Adam:

When I mentioned the alternate route that a player took on #10 in a Pa State Am, I think it was Mark Studer who said in the upcoming Open they'll just extend the beginning of the 11th fairway out enough to make that a poor idea off #10 tee. I can't remember now if that looks like a good and simple solution or not.

[Philip Gawith]

Tom - will you explain the Lon Hinkle reference please. I remember the name, but no more.

Also - what is wrong with internal OB? It is the feature that makes the first hole at Hoylake one of the scariest in golf, and it is the feature which will surely add much excitment when it comes into play at the closing hole of the Open next year?

[Doug Siebert]

I was going to point out how this adds an option and some additional strategy to a hole, both things we are all in favor of, and I even had a great example.  Then I realized that my example would be a poster child for the little-used double fairway.  Unfortunately where the double fairway is used it is usually where it doesn't really belong because either it offers a shortcut that's a clear winner for longer hitters or a safer shot for shorter hitters.

The hole I'm thinking of was a 550ish par 5 that had a pond sitting in the fairway at about 275 (and trees lining the fairway around that range as well) that prevented the green from being hit in two if you went that way since you had to lay up.  But playing out to the left down an adjoining fairway allowed one to get a shot at it.  But since there was a pond to the left of the green you had to play over it with a long iron to reach that green in two, but the pond was only an issue for a dead pull when you played it down the proper fairway and had a short pitch in on your third.  I can't believe that was deliberate, but it was certainly serendipity at work.

Great example for the "dilemma" thread if nothing else, I guess.

[Tony_Muldoon]

what is wrong with internal OB?

Philip make that a new thread and my money's on 5 pages!

[Philip Gawith]

Tony - I may very well take you up on that!

[Sean_A]

Philip

I am in agreement with Tom P.  Internal ob isn't very clever.  Usually it means with one stroke somebody has lost the hole and the player is not even afforded the opportunity to gaze upon a muddy stream searching for his ball.  

The 1st at Hoylake is the posterchild for penal design.  I may be wrong, but it seems to me that the opener is more respected than loved.

Ciao

Sean

[Philip Gawith]

I agree Sean - more respected than loved. But it is wholly original, and very scary - the type of hole that competitors, who know it, relive many times in their mind before they play it.

That is surely a good thing - and it is not as if it is penal/unfair. I bet you your average short-hitting golfer takes a five on that hole most times. It is just when you are playing for a par that you get into trouble.

[Sean_A]

Philip

No, the hole certainly isn't unfair.  Though I can image some humpty backs playing it as a par 6.  Two to the corner and two more on.  Imagine the thrill of getting a birdie 5 on a par 4.

I don't care for the 1st, but I wouldn't advocate change because that hole is Hoylake.  Take the opener away and the course would be much the lesser for it.  

Ciao

Sean

[wsmorrison]

Wouldn't it be fun to play from the 9th tee to the 18th green and the 18th tee to the 9th green at Shinnecock Hills?  That would require some strong carries to the fairways but you'd end up closer to the clubhouse on 18  

[Darren_Kilfara]

20 posts in this thread and no mention of the Old Course yet?

[Nathan Cashwell]

I have seen that scenario at a few places.  However, the one that really sticks out in my mind is at a golf course that planted pines to the right of the primary tee to protect the green of the adjacent hole.  From the back tees these trees did not block off the adjacent hole, but actually created a target for the player to hit their drive directly over the edge of the adjacent green, down the entirety of the hole (a par 3) and end up back in the fairway of the hole being played.
With a slight draw the player could hit a kicker slope on the right side of the hole which would kick the ball onto or just short of the green.  This play was only possible from the back tees and was probably rarely tried until the pines were planted essentially creating a "target hole" in the trees that drew the players eye and showed them this line.  Otherwise the hole is a short dogleg par 4 with a pine planted right in the middle of the fairway.  Essentially the only play one had was to poke a mid to long iron out to one side or the other of the large pine and have a wedge into the green.  A fun shot to try, but forced you to play over the adjacent hole and a slight fade would end up on or over the tee of the adjacent hole.  Probably not recommended by most lawyers.

[Jim Sweeney]

Internal OB is not my favorite solution, but there are three curcumstances to consider in deciding whether to use it:

1) Safety
2) Hole design
3) Pace of play

Internal OB might be the last solution to consider, but it may also be the best.

The decision to use iternal OB may change depending on the situation; I am positive that internal OB has been used in the US Open (for the life of me I cannot recall the specificsof year and course) to protect spectators, though it did not exist for daily play. It prevented players for intentionally playing down the "wrong" fairway, which would have required a shot over the crowd's heads.

Hinckle tree solutions are not always possible.

[JohnV]

Tom,

I recently saw a player play #11 at Oakmont by hitting into the 10th fairway and coming into 11 from there.  That seems like a better idea than the other way.  The player was able to hit driver instead of having to layup with an iron and took the bunker at the front of the green out of play.

Playing to 11 from 10 seems to be risky because of the way the 11th fairway slopes and the ball might run over into the rough pretty easily and leave a very difficult second.

The one place I used to do this was on 9th hole at Ghost Creek at Pumpkin Ridge. I would drive it into the first fairway (after going up on the ridge to make sure that no one was there.)  It took the creek and the lake on the hole out of play.  I first saw a pro do this during a tournament there and started doing it myself.  It worked great as long as I carried the fairway bunkers on #1.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Do you recall the sign on the 3rd tee at Seminole ?

Jamie Slonis,

For decades I played down the 1st fairway from the 9th tee at Somerset Hills.  Most golfers don't think it's the right way to play the hole until they hit a big hook and the revelation hits them as they stand in the 1st fairway preparing to hit a shorter, safer second shot into terrain that will hold their shot without fear of going OB.