[Kris Spence]

This morning while thumbing through Mike Fay's book, "Golf As It Was Meant To Be Played", my associate and I found the stream shown on the 12th at Plainfield to be particularly interesting in the way it runs between the green and the left bunker.  I have not played there however from the photo it appears to dissappear as it nears the green.  It got us to thinking about "narrow ditch like grass depressions" as hazards versus the use of a sand filled bunker.  

Biarritz swales sort of fall into this category when used in front of the green, where else have you seen a feature like this used in different circumstances.  Post photo's if you have them.

[Adam_Messix]

Kris--

The most notable use of Dry Hazards has to be at Oakmont.  They appear on a number of holes, such as 2, 5, 9 (can catch a quick hook of 1), 11, 12, and I think there is at least one more.  The thing about the dry hazards at Oakmont are there close proximity to the fairways, particularly in the driving zone on 9 and the layup zone on 12.  Ernie Els hit his drive in the final round of the 1994 Open in the ditch on 9 and was fortunate to make 5.  The thing is that you really have to respect them from a playing perspective because you have real problems if you go into one.  The ditch on 12 is quite deep, as a matter of fact, Oakmont has placed ball retrievers along the edge of the one on 12 because of it's depth.  

The one thing that I'm not sure about is whether the ditches were solely meant to be penal (the fairway stops short of them on 5 and 11) or were a major component to the drainage of the course.  That's the one thing that the Fownes were really ahead of their time on, they can get water off the that course quickly, one look at those greens during a heavy rainstorm is a great illustration.  

[JohnV]

The ditch betwen 4 and 5 at Oakmont:



The ditches also come into play on 4, 8 and 10.

[Mike Hendren]

Ross at Memphis CC:

[TEPaul]

Kris:

I couldn't agree more with Adam about those dry ditches at Oakmont. Whether or not they were intended to be some  penal/strategic architectural feature to affect play by Fownes is sort of beside the point----the point is they certainly can be and the thinking player is definitely aware of them and where they are even if some aren't easy to see (from the tee or whatever). (Adam, the other pretty dangerous one is right of the bunkering on #10). Some are pretty narrow and that's most of the problem with them for play and recovery.

I think they're all "through the green" and if so you should take a look at them. It's not a huge deal but if you do some on another course and they're "through the green" you may not want to put gravel at the base of them or the thinking player may be able to take free relief from them by sticking a tee down into one and hitting the gravel with the tee and legitimately calling it something like a French drain "Through the green".  

[JohnV]

Tom,  I believe that the ditches at Oakmont are all marked as hazards. You can see a couple of red stakes near the caddie in the picture I posted.  The problem with them for the average golfers is that since they are dry most of the time (although probably not today), people think they can hit it out of them.  Then they leave it in there and are really in trouble.

By the way, the picture I posted above was taken shortly after they had re-sodded that particular ditch.  The intent is to let it grow much wilder than that.

I forgot, there are also ditches alongside 15 and 18.

[john_stiles]

The ditch at Memphis CC is not a hazard, but it certainly plays like a hazard.  It is to be avoided.

Palmetto GC has a dry 'ditch' crossing at the 14th, par 5, Crazy Creek hole.  It is not marked as a hazard but is definitely in play with a short drive, or second shot from difficult lie in the rough, or any punch-out from the tree line. It would be wet, or soft, only after heavy rains.  

[Brent Hutto]

I can attest to the dispair induced on the fourteenth at Palmetto when one misses right with the tee shot and punches out into the ditch. It's easy to have a bad lie in the ditch and have no choice but a wedge third shot that doesn't advance the ball very far at all. It might not have stakes but it is hazardous.

Another course with a dry feature of this type is The Patriot near Greenwood, SC. IIRC it is either the ninth or eighteenth hole that features an approach to a severely elevated green with any shot coming up short ending up in a dry ditch or "moat" from where the recovery is a near-vertical pitch way up onto the green. I think that's a much cooler feature than putting an actual water hazard there.

[BCrosby]

I had forgotten the the ditch on the 14th at Palmetto. A great feature.

Ross's sketches indicate several dry ditches at Athens CC. A couple were around greens. There was an interesting ditch at a diagonal through the second shot landing area on the par 5 fourth. All seemed to have water transport functions as well as acting as hazards.

Bob

[Carlyle Rood]

14th @ Pasatiempo

[Brent Hutto]

And here's what you face if you stay right (near the OB line) to avoid the ditch. However, it's a short enough shot that the bunkers aren't really intimidating for a halfway decent player.

[Tom Huckaby]

Great call re 14 at Pasa.  That "dry ditch" dominates the golf hole.  If you say short of it, it's a long shot in... if you go in it, the shot will be blind... if you go right, you face the angle Brent's picture presented.

Just do note that us normal-length players rarely have a short shot into that hole... playing the back tees a few weeks ago, I hit a very good drive to the right center, a little left of Brent's angle, and had 190 into that same back right pin.  Hell yes the bunkers were intimidating.  And I'd like to think I am at times half-way decent.

 

[Nathan Cashwell]

Those are all good examples, but most of them are natural especially in the southwest/west where "arroyos" are much more common than say in the southeast.  What about artificial strategic features designed to resemble an arroyo, but has the primary function as a strategic feature in place of say a bunker instead of carrying or shedding water from the playing area, as a "v-ditch" does.  Which by the way are found quite a bit in the southeast, but are primarily for drainage.

[Nathan Cashwell]

I've seen such features on some Ross plans, but most are where there is already a feature there and he is "enhancing" it instead of creating the feature from dry flat ground.  Any examples of man-made arroyos or dry ditches.  The dry moat example sounds like it is close.

[Mark_Fine]

For what it is worth, the ditches at Oakmont were designed solely for drainage by Fownes and Loeffler and they work exceptually well.  The bunkers were their primary hazards, although the greens at Oakmont qualify as hazards as well  .  
Mark

[Jim Sweeney]

Detroit GC, 36 holes of Ross, is on a flat piece of land and employs man made grass ditches for drainage. They are in play and marked as water hazards, which they are by definition, though it is relatively easy to play from them when they are dry.

Ross used the ditches for strategic purposes on several holes.

[TEPaul]

JVB:

I really had a hard time figuring out which holes that photo with the caddie and red stakes was of. Last time I was out there around the Pa State Amateur (2-3 years ago) there were trees there. That course is definitely the MOTHER of all tree removal projects!

Mark Studer:

You really are the all time tree serial murderer!  

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