Golf Magazine 10 courses you can play

[Craig Sweet]

I was just reading about these 10 new courses you can play. What a joke!  Yes, you can play them, but can you afford to play them?

$100, $250, $500 green fees!

The guys I see playing everyday stop and spend 15 minutes at every water hazard looking for golf balls. They play everyday so their membership works out to about $2 per round. They won't pay $50 (cart included) to play the newest course in town...just one time!

Yes, golf has a problem. Yes, golf is dying. It isn't the equipment and the technology that is killing golf. It has just plain become TOO EXPENSIVE. Not unlike skiing, golf courses are pricing themselves out of business. People have other options for their dollars, and paying $100 and more for a round of golf is low on their priority list.

[Dan_Callahan]

At least with skiing, there is a way around the cost: Strap on some telemark or randonee boards and skin your way to the top of a mountain that is on public land. From there, you get solitude, untracked powder, and no expense outside of the equipment. The greatest snow in North America—in the Grand Tetons, Mount Washington, the Rockies—is available to anyone with the fortitude to access it.

I can think of no parallel cost-free scenario in golf.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

The inclusion of Sandia in New Mexico is certainly affordable as is plenty of golf in The Land of Enchantment -- see Black Mesa, Paa-Ko Ridge, etc, etc.

No doubt -- price is a major factor for many people and it's something the key magazines should pay more attention because Joe Sixpack simply cannot absorb at-will such high costs in any sustained fashion.

[Scott Stearns]

the is a complete non-issue.  I grew up in a town that owned 6 munis.  At 13, I showed up one day and watched my Gym teacher learning golf.   Westchester county, in NY, owns at least 5 munis.  all of the above, while not FREE, are affordable by broad cross sections of the communities they serve.  Need i bring up the new york state park system and the by now infamous Bethpage State Park?

where no munis are available, and in some places where they are, there are many low-cost golf offerings.  
we're not going to read about them in golf digest, any more than we're going to read about the chevy impala in road and track.  but these offerings have always been there and always will be.

Sure we need more, isn't it unfair that Joe Dokes can't play Seminole on a Sunday morning in February for $20, blah, blah, blah.

in the 1960's, all the best new courses were private, with the possible exception of a few resort courses in Florida or Palm Springs.  at least now the pvt club experience is available for those who want to try it but cant affort the full initiation fee.

[Craig Sweet]

Dan, that is true and many families have switched to cross country skiing. But getitng into the back country is not for the out of shape Joe Sixpack type of golfer

There is a mini-resurection of the old t-bar equiped family ski hill happening and its a direct response to what happened in the 80's and 90's to skiing. Large scale corporate resorts dominated, and still do. Sadly, I see that trend in golf as well and personally I think it will lead to golf becoming even more the domain of the wealthy.

[Craig Sweet]

Munis' are often crowded, sometimes poorly maintained, and serve at the pleasure of the voter. In other words, tomorrow they could be sold off for development money.

Never the less....my bone to pick was with the Golf article highlighting 10 courses "you can play now' and each and everyone being very expensive. Just who do they think their readeship is?

[Dan_Callahan]

Craig,

Hauling your butt into the backcountry is definitely not for the average supersize-me, five-course eating, god-forbid-I should-exercise American. However, for the true ski nut who is willing to take some risks and exert himself, untracked pristine terrain is available.

I wish the same were true in golf. You know—perhaps swim across Long Island Sound, maybe repel down a cliff or two while carrying your clubs, possibly some camping involved, but in the end you get Fishers Island all to yourself!

[Craig Sweet]

I was driving across the Rocky Mountain front two days ago, gazing out across miles and miles of beauty, thinking how much fun it would be to tee it up and head for the hills off in the distance.

By the way, I saw 9 bald eagles out along the Blackfoot River, and several large elk herds. Sweet!

[Dan_Callahan]

What's truly amazing is to get off the gondola at the top of Jackson Hole. Looking out to the surrounding peaks of the Tetons, you can just make out solitary ski tracks that start on the shoulder of some jagged cliff and disappear into the valley below. Makes you wonder about the kind of person with the balls to take on such a line.

Of course, you also read about the dozen or so people who die each year because they had the balls to ski in those crazy places and got buried by avalanches.

Not sure what my point is . . .

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Do you live in the Colorado area?

If so -- then you likely know that you have some of the best public courses at modest costs you can play anywhere in the USA.

Ditto with border states such as WY and NM, to name just two.

I do share your feelings that more emphasis should also be placed on the cost factor / architectural qualities because simply listing courses at $150 or more to play can be a limiting exercise for the Joe Sixpack golfers of this country.

[cary lichtenstein]

Doesn't one of the magazines list "best courses under $50 by state"?

[Mike Boehm]

Golf Digest ranks the top 10 best new courses under $50 and top 10 best new courses over $50 annually.  I am not aware of a state-by-state ranking of affordable golf courses.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt Ward...I live in Montana. Any course in Montana worthy of a write up in Golf or Golf Digest is going to be so private and exclusive that very few actual Montanans would be able to play them.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Likely you have already played Old Works in Anaconda. Clearly, the best Jack Nicklaus layout with some of the most modest fees one can have for such a solid layout.

Mountain time zone golf has some unique possibilities for golf at a modest cost. I would have hoped that Golf Magazine would have listed Rochelle Ranch in Rawlins, WY.

Wonderful design by Ken Kavanaugh and conveniently located of I-80. The fees there are extremely modest and the host folks are first rate.

Depending upon what side of the state you live -- there are few courses in the Dakotas which offer modest top quality public golf too.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt Ward...Old Works is about 1 1/2 hours from where I live. Quite a drive and I'm actual "close" enough to make it a day trip.

The Dakota courses are probably 7 hours east of Billings, Montana, yet another lenghty drive for golf, but certainly do able.

The point is, Golf highlighted 10 courses that each cost a lot of money to play ONCE, much less 3 or 4 times on a vacation.

Personally, I think Steve Winn is delusional if he thinks his course is worthy of a $500 green fee...

[W.H. Cosgrove]

Anyone consider that the problem isn't the corporations and the greens fees but the problem is with us?  

When looking at old golf film, I am always amazed at the poor conditions and the good competition.  If we expected less would we have more fun?  

Hell if the greens weren't always perfect, I could legitamately complain that I hit some bump or hole causing me to miss my putt.  

Skiing would be D.O.A. had it not been for the snowboarders.  And they are off seeking lesser conditions rather than the perfectly groomed runs.  As one of theose mad men who wandered off piste in my younger days, I can tell you its a hell of a rush.  It also requires more skill, more mental toughness, and a desire to overcome.  Gee that sounds like golf!  

Golf may be dying because we have taken much of the uncertainty out of it.  And those perfect conditions are EXPENSIVE.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

Keep in mind that Vegas operates in its own world. Prices to play there are relative to what a typical gambler may lose at the tables. When you lose thousands -- paying $500 for golf can be seen as reasonable to those with that mindset.

I have to repeat again that Old Works is well done by Team Nicklaus. The layout provides plenty of width and the land the course occupies has enough pitch to provide for some unique and fun holes. Nothing public that I have played in Montana comes close -- especially when the fescue fairways are running hard and fast.

The fees are also some of the best around for such a "designer" name layout.

Craig -- keep in mind the demand for such high priced courses depends upon the given market place. Here in New Jersey where I live we have the 8th most expensive public course fees in the nation. When you have a high number of players with equally high disposable income and few courses of high caliber quality to play the price will no doubt stretch the wallets of many players.

I think it would help if magazines started to highlight the best courses from both an architectural and price side. No doubt they are indeed present. Unfortunately, the Mountain Time Zone does have such golf options -- it's a shame that the Big Sky country has so few at this moment although the private "gated" second home community facilities are starting to come forward with the likes of designer architects.

I would thoroughly recommend the immediate Denver area for a slew of solid golf options that won't break your pocketbook although the drive is clearly a handicap.

The other option is to head further west towards the panhandle of Idaho and even Spokane for some other options.

[Craig Sweet]

Matt Ward...

A LOT of people will look at that article in Golf Magazine and throw up their hands and proclaim golf is too expensive.
 

Skiing went through this back in the 1980's when land development started driving big money into the industry. A handful of large companies were going around buying up resorts and the cost of skiing went thru the roof. A ticket to Big Sky, here in Montana, is $65 a day.  Mom and dad, and a couple of kids will set a family back more than $200 just for the lift tickets per day. That is CHEAP compared to a single round of golf at a resort.

Yes, golf is dying. People are making decisions with their feet and walking away from the sport because its too expensive to have even a moderately nice experience.

You can't blame the "new technology" for this.

[Dan King]

Craig Sweet writes:
Munis' are often crowded, sometimes poorly maintained, and serve at the pleasure of the voter. In other words, tomorrow they could be sold off for development money.

Never the less....my bone to pick was with the Golf article highlighting 10 courses "you can play now' and each and everyone being very expensive. Just who do they think their readeship is?

It's a great system. The better courses cost more and the crappy courses cost less. If the whole thing was reversed you couldn't get a tee time at the great courses that are cheap and the crappy courses that cost a lot wouldn't stay in business very long.

Can you think of a better system?

Dan King

Those who wait for that must wait until a shrimp learns to whistle.
 --Nikita Khruschev (referring to the chances of the Soviet Union rejecting communism)

[Craig Sweet]

I see a "system" that will guarentee a smaller and smaller clientel year after year for everyone regardless of access and cost.

That will not be good for golf.

[Tom_Doak]

Craig:

I hate to say it but GOLF Magazine chooses its top 10 new courses you can play partly on the basis of what IS expensive.  If it's expensive, they might advertise; if it's expensive, their readers probably won't get stuck with poor conditioning.

They do not research that article exceptionally well, and you're reading too much into it, other than that it sets a bad example.

The truth though is that few people are going to build a brand-new golf course to serve the truly "affordable" market you are championing.  It costs too much to develop new courses to charge low green fees on them.  As Dan King implied, those in search of affordable golf will find plenty of it, but only on older courses which were built for less dollars.

PS  Some of the courses also use these articles to float trial balloons about greens fees.  Last year's T & L GOLF piece about Barnbougle Dunes listed the green fees as US$165, but the most they have actually charged anyone that I know of is A$80, or US$60.

[Craig Sweet]

Tom, I understand that. It cost too much to develop new ski areas these days too. Ski hill maintinance cost are obscene and skier numbers are shrinking. The smaller, older ski hills, which were all over America, have all but disappeared. Here's a great link...http://www.nelsap.org/

Do you see a pattern here?

Unless someone figures something out, sports such as skiing, and golf will be available for fewer and fewer people and the costs will continue to grow as fewer golfers and skiers try to support an infrastructure that costs more and more.

Its my opinion that at the turn of the last century golf in America was pretty much a sport for the wealthy. Those with leisure time and money played the game. Somewhere along the way more and more people got some leisure time and disposable income. Then along came a guy named Palmer and boom...golf was off and running. Forty years after Palmer it seems to be tail spinning back down to a game for the wealthy and those with leisure time.

I read Ski Magazine and Golf Magazine, and I see the ski hills and golf courses they profile in their articles. I can't help but think that these magazines are like the band on the Titanic. Playing away while the ship is sinking.

[Garland Bayley]

If you live in Montana, you should be able to play lots of good courses for a little money. Sure you won't get $100 to $500 conditioning, but that is not what golf is about. I learned to play on the 9 holer in Harlowton, MT. Great terrain for a course just like many courses in MT. Lewistown and Cut Bank come to mind. Perhaps the routing on that terrain could have been better, but still interesting terrain with challenging wind.

I read the Golf Digest categories for their last rating. Perhaps just half is about the golf. I fantasized about being able to run my own program over their rating database to extract the courses that I felt would be the ones I would want to play.

They had an article in the magazine that in effect admitted that. With the right architect and the right conditioning and services you could crack the top 100. So where's the golf?

[Craig Sweet]

Garland, yes, there are some interesting layouts in Montana. You will not see Matt Ward write about them because Old Works is really the only golf in Montana...so far as he knows.

I've been thinking a little more about the similarities between the golf industry and the ski industry.

There was a time in northern America when every town had its ski hill. Gernerations learned to ski and race at these hills. In my native state of Vermont 30 or 40 of these hills have gone away.

How many small, and not so small golf courses have disapeared in the last 30 years?  I can think of two or three within 10 miles of where I grew up that are gone. What has replaced them?

I have seen the statistics on how many new courses were opened last year and how many were public versus private.  But I wonder, what is lost and what is gained?

Please don't assume that I think golf should be inexpensive. Too be honest I don't know if I have an opinion about that.

However, the courses we tout here, and debate here, and the courses the magazines promote, are either very exclusive and not available to most, or very expensive and not available to most. There can be little or no understanding of fine architecture, history, proper maintenance, etc. if you do not have access to the goods.

If this is the direction golf has taken, and I think it is the trend, at some point does golf become like skiing...dominated by large corporate entities while smaller operations disapear?

Garland, just as Montana has some nice little 9 holers scattered about the state, it still has some quirky little ski hills. Sadly, they are one or two lousy winters away from disappearing, and each season is a struggle.

[Matt_Ward]

Craig:

If there are other "interesing" layouts in Montana beyond Old Works please knock yourself out and explain what I and other are missing.

Craig, I'm not interested in treking to Big Sky Country to play ordinary golf which has at its core attractiveness "cheap golf." If that's your primary consideration for playing that's fine -- for you. I plan my golf visits to any part of the country on the premise that something of quality is there. Price is a factor for me -- but a seconday one at best when held against architectural qualities.

In many areas of the country the sheer costs for land acquisition can be quite costly. Ditto if any work needs to happen in order to reshape or prepare the land because of pre-existing environmental aspects that need to be overcomed.

There's no doubt that private golf is moving faster and faster to Montana -- Nicklaus and Doak both have places that are going in that direction. No doubt these are private facilities and cater to a specific and narrow base of people.

I don't agree with your assessment / re: quality public golf and even higher fees. There are clear alternatives from the travels I have made to the mountain time zone -- I do admit that many of these quality courses may not be out the front door of your property but they do exist.

The issue by Golf Magazine is simply a listing of the more "noted" openings -- Tom Doak explained that quite well in terms of the limited due diligence shown by the magazine. I also pointed out a numberof affordable layouts that are available for those willing to travel to play them.

Craig -- many times magazines tout certain courses because of advertising linkages. I can't speak to the motivation for Golf Magazine but I can say this -- I played eight ( of the ones they listed and there are other candidates that should have been selected because their architetcural design is superior and as it happens they do offer a much lower price to play there.

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