5 Choices -Part 3- Sunningdale's 5th

[ian]

The hole I've used is the 5th at Sunningdale. A mid length (410 yard) par four with what is thought to be the first artificial water hazard (please correct me if this is wrong). For those who do not know the hole, the actual pond is between the landing area and is well short of the green. I've moved the pond around to a couple of locations for discussion.

The pond is shifted straight back to the front of the green.


Pond relocated to the left of the green


Pond relocated to the front right side of the green


#4 has been retired to the scrap pile

[Jeff Mingay]

For whatever it's worth, I vote to leave the pond in its present location  

[CHrisB]

It appears that only in the 2nd scenario does one get rewarded for challenging the bunkers on the tee shot, especially for the back left pin which looks pretty scary.  In the other scenarios it looks like you go left to avoid the bunkers no matter what.  The focred carries eliminate options so I don't care for them.

By the way, I am simply amazed at what you can do with these pictures, Ian.  If I send you a picture of myself can you send me one of me holding up the Claret Jug or putting on the green jacket?

[ian]

Chris, can be done!

OK Jeff, the balls in your court. Tell me why this is the best location with out using any reference to history.

[Doug Siebert]

I like the pond on the left, for the reasons ChrisB mentioned as well as the fact it brings the runup shot into play.  The current hole may as well not have the pond at all, other than its penalty on short hitters or poor players.  I'm not a big fan of hazards that only penalize those guys, golf is hard enough for them as it is!

I don't know what the prevailing winds are like there, but the pond on the left is even more lovely if its left to right.  Even with a wedge to the green that's a shot that'd make you think, and a player who could really play the running shot would be well rewarded.  If that was my home course I'd probably learn to play that shot as well as I wish I could, just for that hole on a windy day.

[TEPaul]

Ian:

The hell with this pond stuff!

If I send you a picture of me and another picture of Heidi Klum can you do a picture of me holding Heidi or Heidi holding me?

[Keith Williams]

Ian,

I agree with everybody regarding the left hand position; but I
have to admit that I really like the visual appearance of the
pond on the front right, just kinda lurking there, blending and
flowing into the trees and forest. For strategic purposes one
 might want to remove the right bunkersand place some deep
 ones on the left so that the daring playwill skirt the left side
 sand to get a decent angle in...

[Tim Weiman]

Ian Andrews:

Excellent work. Amazing quality and really good for architecture discussion.

I'm with Keith Williams. Though I can understand the case for placing the hazard on the left side, I like the right side the best, maybe even more than the real thing. The way it blends in with the trees just seems more natural.

[henrye]

I'm with Keith.  The pond hidden on the right, next to the trees, looks most visually appealing.  I think, however, that the shape of the pond makes it uninteresting wherever it is placed.  It doesn't fit in because it is so perfectly round that it looks manufactured.

I think if the pond was on the right, but shaped so it curved around the back of the green it would come into play with a shot hit over the green and still remain pleasing to the eye.  Attacking the pin from the left of the fairway one would have to keep the ball from running through the green.  Coming in from the right, one would have to hit over the pond.  A back right pin position would be challenging.

[Tim Weiman]

Henrye:

I'm not thrilled with the shape either.

[Jeremy Glenn,]

For what it's worth, my vote goes to the left hand side option.

And yet the "straight in front" option would, in my opinion, be the choice of modern architecture.

[Jeff Mingay]

Ian,

I don't know the initimate details of Sunningdale's design history, but I'll take your word that the pond in question is  artificial. It must be.

Now, as to why its present location is "best." I presume that spot where the pond is today was originally poorly drained. If indeed it was created to solve an inherent drainage problem -- which in light of its "strange" position, makes sense to me -- then its in the "best" spot.

I don't believe digging a pond in front of or next to green, or excavating a pond as a hazard was in Willie Park's "bag of tricks" around the turn of the 20th century? Yet another reason I presume this pond solved a drainage problem.

I could be wrong?

[Michael Dugger]

That is really freaking cooool.  I like the one without the pond.  No need.  Just costs me balls.

[Andy Hodson]

Ian
This is quickly becoming my favorite thing about GCA. What a great exercise. And after great study, my opinion is...leave it where it is originally. Here's why I think that is the best place:

--First picture at first glance I liked best (pond in front). Here the hazard protects the green the most and will play a part in the golfer's thinking no matter where the hole is. But, I bet it is out of sorts with the rest of the golf course and it takes the run up option out of play. And the visual is not great; looks like a big bath tub plunked in front of the green. But in terms of most effect on the second shot, I like it here the best. But its out.
--Second picture (pond on the left) just doesn't do much for me. So there is a pond over there, so what. It doesn't protect the green much, if at all. It may reward the tighter line off the tee(only because it doesn't penalize it), but it doesn't penalize the tee ball played much further left. From that side of the fairway the player, on all shots except the far left hole location, is actually playing away from the water. So its out.
--Third picture (pond on right) is probably the most visually appealing look. But it actually penalizes the more risky drive played close to the bunkers, making that play foolish unless the pin is back left. So its out.
--Which makes me think why have the pond on the hole in the first place? The part of the green in pics 2 and 3 it guards is already being guarded by bunkers. Leave them to do their job. The hole would be best served by having no pond, so take it out. Unless Jeff  is correct and it needs to be there for drainage. So leave it where it is.

Please Ian, keep em coming!

[Jim_Kennedy]

Ian,
It seems like the challenge of the original hole is spread out equally for different levels of player profiency. On the approach the pond offers a mental distraction for someone with a short iron in but is far enough away for the player hitting the longer shot to gauge his carry while still having room to stop the ball before it gets into the trees behind the green.
The mound left looks like it can be used to play a bank shot, risky of course but worth taking a chance in match play, especially after a shortish drive. It may also have had the effect of toughening up this area for a player who wants to bump a low fade in.
The greenside bunkering will "save your butt" on a lousy approach.

The approach shots for the first and fourth greens/photos really need precise aerial bombs to have a chance. Probably not the run of the mill shot when the original hole was built.

The approach shots for the second and third greens/photos  requires lateral precision and allow running it on but they don't have the same broad challenge for varying levels of play as the original.

[Jeremy_Glenn.]

A pond-free option.


Yeah!....  I can see why you're having so much fun, Ian.  

[ian]

I'm enjoying all the comments. The first looking too modern. The second having the best shot values. The third seems to sit in best. The fourth was a mistake . Jeff had a great point concerning why it was there and Willie .

As for Jeremy, Nice!

I like the idea of removing the pond and looking at the area.

The idea of tightening up the left with a bunker makes a player think of playing right for a better approach. It brings the origional fairway bunkers back into play.

How about one step further, shift the second bunker closer as a potential carry bunker. Create a far landing with a better approach angle.



Always looking for alternative 7.