[Sean_A]

With all the talk of strategic courses being the best way to design courses, how bout the penal courses?  Surely there are some great courses that are penal.  I understand that many great courses have a combination of design principles, but which great courses could one predominately describe as penal?  

I have heard Oakland Hills, Pine Valley and Woodhall Spa labelled as penal.  Should these courses be labelled as penal?  I suspect that some all-world links courses could hit the list.  What are some other great courses that could possibly qualify as penal?

Ciao

Sean

[Geoffrey Childs]

Sean

Two of the very best modern ones would have to be Pete Dyes Stadium courses at Sawgrass and especially PGA West.

I would not really put Woodhall Spa in the penal category even with those deep bunkers. It is still great however.

[A_Clay_Man]

I'd say Pebble Beach fits the bill as both penal and great.

[Mike_Cirba]

Oakmont and Carnoustie are likely the respective new world/old world centerfolds in this particular field of study.  

[Jonathan Cummingham]

I'm a sucker for punishment.  I love penal golf, regardless of what I shoot.  Two recent penal rounds for me have been: 1. Wolf Creek, Mesquite Nevada.  Ranked as the second hardest golf course in North America, it tops the list for penal holes.  I believe it was the third hole; a par three that is 60' uphill and 240+ yards. You can't see the putting surface, just the flag. The green is on a plateau, that if missed spits your ball down steep embankments into thick rough.  Imagine those "Hardest Golf Holes" calendars; Wolf Creek is as close to those pictures in the calendar, as you'll ever see.  You'd better go on a day when the wind doesn't blow.

2. The Kingsley Club in Northern Michigan.  Perhaps the most penal courses I've ever played.  At times you may need to putt the ball off the green, in order to not make a huge number.  The short ninth is more fun than you'll ever have on a par three.  I'd like to shake the hand of anyone who has hit the green in regulation.  It's a real honor to be invited to this club.

[Jerry Kluger]

The Ocean Course at Kiawah.

[Tom_Doak]

After playing Carnoustie in the Dunhill Links tournament, I will second its nomination as a penal design.  On several holes in the wind it seemed like anything but the center of the fairway would wind up in a bunker.

[peter_mcknight]

Oakmont, Carnoustie, Spyglass Hill, Bethpage from the 7300 yard plus tips, Pinehurst with the greens as firm as they were in 1999, PGA West Stadium, Industry Hills Eisenhower before they began cutting the rough to 2-3 inches from 5-6 inches, Koolau Golf Course, the International Pines course from the 8300 tips and par 72, TPC Sawgrass when first constructed and played and Shinnecock in the 4th round 2004.

Would agree with the Ocean Course at Kiawah.

Perhaps Winged Foot West could be included here as well.

[Keith Williams]

The NLE Lagoon Legend...(fights back tears in fond memory)

Maybe not defined as great, but at least fits 50% of the bill.

Keith.

[Phil_the_Author]

Penal... Difficult... Brutal. These are similar words that can be interchangeable, but that isn't always the case.

There are many golf courses that can be brutally, penally difficult, but that alone doesn't lift them to the status as great. That word has become so overused that we need to begin reaquainting ourselves with the standard that atually defines it.

Here is my nomination for teh world's greatest penal golf course, that even when it is set up to challenge the world's finest players, is still fair.

It should come as no surprise that I mention Bethpage Black, but there are good reasons for it. I have a rather impressive list of fellow believers that would put it up there. From the 2002 Open, consider:

“I’ve played it three times. It's the hardest golf course I’ve ever seen.” Spike McRoy

“This is as hard a U.S. Open as I’ve ever played, and that’s given we played in perfect conditions.” Phil Mickelson
     
“Very scary.” Dudley Hart

“This golf course is more difficult than Pebble was playing…” Tiger Woods

“I’m ranked 13th or 14th best in the world, and I’m not good enough to play this course.”  Bob Estes after shooting an opening round score of 81.

“It’s a hard golf course, but it’s hard for everybody.” Stewart Cink

“It’s the hardest U.S. Open I’ve ever seen or expect to see.” Davis Love III.

“You can see that a golf course like this can embarrass the greatest players in the world.” Rich Lerner

“Well, when you have a course that has nine par fives…” Scott Verplank

      “Well, I know I’ve not played a tougher course than this. It’s the hardest course I’ve ever played… I’ve never seen anything even close to this… It’s just a brutal course.” Scott Hoch

      “I’m glad I’m leaving; I’m glad I didn’t make the cut. I was trying, believe me. I tried every single shot as hard as I could and still shot 16 over par. No, 17 over; I never let up one time. I never slacked a shot. I never not tried my hardest… I’m glad I’m not playing there again. It makes you want to quit, It makes you want to retire when you’re forty-two and 16 over. I asked my caddie when the last time I was 16 over and he said maybe 20 years ago. I’ve been 16 over before after four rounds, but not two…” Paul Azinger

      “We were laughing it up a little bit. It was almost comical how hard the golf course played today. It was the toughest round of golf I ever had to play.” He was then asked if Carnoustie in ’99 was the most severe. He answered, “Carnoustie, at that time, had been the hardest golf I’ve ever had to play, but this surpasses that, I believe.”  Dudley Hart

“I’m wore out.” John Daly
     
“It's too hard for me.” Scott Hoch

“If I have to compare them, all three of them are very similar. I think Oakmont was obviously -- had a bit of lack of length to Congressional, but I would say this one is, in a way, a lot tougher.”  Ernie Els

“This course is a lot tougher than Southern Hills last year," defending champion Retief Goosen

“With Carnoustie calm, guys can shoot good scores around it, but this is the toughest [course] we've ever played in calm conditions. If it ever blew here, it would be impossible.” Nick Faldo.

 “I haven't played anything harder than this. It magnifies every little mistake.” Brad Faxon

“This is a hell of a golf course.” Robert Allenby

“You can't find a better-playing golf course in all the majors I've played, which is 22 in a row now. The golf course is immaculate…” Stuart Appleby

“I fell in love with the place immediately. It's a tremendous course, a great atmosphere, [I like] everything about it. It's in tremendous condition, phenomenal condition... I'd rank it up there right behind Shinnecock as my favorite Open course. [Pebble Beach is] great and it's beautiful, but I think this is a better course than Pebble.”  Tom Lehman

[ForkaB]

Sean

I don't think our group (as clever as we are!) have ever come close to coming to grips with properly defining "penal" and "strategic" and/or just f****ing hard!

Why is a hole with a 250 yard carry over a water hazard off the tee (but with a 220 yard lay up option) thought of as "penal" but a hole with a bunker in the middle at 250 (but allowing for bail outs right or left which also add 30 yards of difficulty to the next shot) called strategic?  Since 18 at Merion (which also has a 250 carry off the tee) can be played with a wedge to the ladies tee and then two shots to the green (a la Paul Runyan), is it a strategic hole?  To me, if it makes guys like Runyan and certain doyens I will not mention, think strategically, then Yup, it is strategic.

Penalties are only self-inflicted in our wonderful game of golf.

[Craig Van Egmond]

I'll second Koolah, third the PGA West Stadium and add Oak Tree in Edmond, Oklahoma. Although they have softened it over the last few years.

In the Seattle area, the not so greats, McCormick Woods and Kayak Point are both unforgiving.  The Trails nine at Port Ludlow is just awful.

Some absolutely awful penal courses I have played are Badlands in Las Vegas and Lost Canyons outside LA.

[BCrosby]

Rich -

Runyan may have been thinking out of the box or out of desperation or wrecklessly or with a wicked sense of humor  or to send up the USGA but the one thing he was not doing was thinking strategically.

Bob  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Woodhall Spa and penal are not two words that I would put togther...none the less Woodhall and great do go together.

It is simply a well laid out, in front of you golf course..without any hidden tricks or gimmicks..but certainly not penal.

I think it is easy to trick up a golf course and make it penal, that is what so many of the modern architects do..add a lake here, big bunker rthere etc...but that is really not very clever.

Probably the most penal golf course I have played is Merion, simply because the penalty for missing any shot can br dealt with so severely by the rough/contour of the green/angle into the green..good architecture allowing for a fair..but penal..golf course.

I agree with the evaluation of The Kingsley Club...some very penal shots there..how about just missing the green on # 2..death..wonderful course..

[JSlonis]

Penal... Difficult... Brutal. These are similar words that can be interchangeable, but that isn't always the case.

There are many golf courses that can be brutally, penally difficult, but that alone doesn't lift them to the status as great. That word has become so overused that we need to begin reaquainting ourselves with the standard that atually defines it.

Here is my nomination for teh world's greatest penal golf course, that even when it is set up to challenge the world's finest players, is still fair.

It should come as no surprise that I mention Bethpage Black, but there are good reasons for it. I have a rather impressive list of fellow believers that would put it up there. From the 2002 Open, consider:

“I’ve played it three times. It's the hardest golf course I’ve ever seen.” Spike McRoy

“This is as hard a U.S. Open as I’ve ever played, and that’s given we played in perfect conditions.” Phil Mickelson
     
“Very scary.” Dudley Hart

“This golf course is more difficult than Pebble was playing…” Tiger Woods

“I’m ranked 13th or 14th best in the world, and I’m not good enough to play this course.”  Bob Estes after shooting an opening round score of 81.

“It’s a hard golf course, but it’s hard for everybody.” Stewart Cink

“It’s the hardest U.S. Open I’ve ever seen or expect to see.” Davis Love III.

“You can see that a golf course like this can embarrass the greatest players in the world.” Rich Lerner

“Well, when you have a course that has nine par fives…” Scott Verplank

      “Well, I know I’ve not played a tougher course than this. It’s the hardest course I’ve ever played… I’ve never seen anything even close to this… It’s just a brutal course.” Scott Hoch

      “I’m glad I’m leaving; I’m glad I didn’t make the cut. I was trying, believe me. I tried every single shot as hard as I could and still shot 16 over par. No, 17 over; I never let up one time. I never slacked a shot. I never not tried my hardest… I’m glad I’m not playing there again. It makes you want to quit, It makes you want to retire when you’re forty-two and 16 over. I asked my caddie when the last time I was 16 over and he said maybe 20 years ago. I’ve been 16 over before after four rounds, but not two…” Paul Azinger

      “We were laughing it up a little bit. It was almost comical how hard the golf course played today. It was the toughest round of golf I ever had to play.” He was then asked if Carnoustie in ’99 was the most severe. He answered, “Carnoustie, at that time, had been the hardest golf I’ve ever had to play, but this surpasses that, I believe.”  Dudley Hart

“I’m wore out.” John Daly
     
“It's too hard for me.” Scott Hoch

“If I have to compare them, all three of them are very similar. I think Oakmont was obviously -- had a bit of lack of length to Congressional, but I would say this one is, in a way, a lot tougher.”  Ernie Els

“This course is a lot tougher than Southern Hills last year," defending champion Retief Goosen

“With Carnoustie calm, guys can shoot good scores around it, but this is the toughest [course] we've ever played in calm conditions. If it ever blew here, it would be impossible.” Nick Faldo.

 “I haven't played anything harder than this. It magnifies every little mistake.” Brad Faxon

“This is a hell of a golf course.” Robert Allenby

“You can't find a better-playing golf course in all the majors I've played, which is 22 in a row now. The golf course is immaculate…” Stuart Appleby

“I fell in love with the place immediately. It's a tremendous course, a great atmosphere, [I like] everything about it. It's in tremendous condition, phenomenal condition... I'd rank it up there right behind Shinnecock as my favorite Open course. [Pebble Beach is] great and it's beautiful, but I think this is a better course than Pebble.”  Tom Lehman

All those quotes about Bethpage are quite interesting, especially for a course that has quite "benign" greens compared to many other Open venues.

Personally I think it is hard to quantify a course's greatness, or degree of difficulty based upon a US Open.  During those events, there is an artificial degree of difficulty that is added to the mix by an unusually extreme setup.

I played Bethpage for the first time about 2 months ago.  The conditions that day were pretty easy overall, the rough was light, and the greens were receptive and not that fast.  When I initially finished my round, my first thought was that I was a bit underwhelmed.  With all the hype and the US Open there, I had wanted it to be more difficult.  It is a very good course, but I couldn't help but think that a lot of the possible strategy and shot values had been compromised by unsually narrowing the fairways.

[Lou_Duran]

Spyglass, Carnoustie, Kiawah-Ocean, Winged Foot-West, Muirfield Village, Beacon Hall.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Its refreshing to see a discussion about an architecture related topic and an important one too.

I still maintain that Woodhall spa is not really penal but perhaps my vision is flawed by the fact that I may have had my best ball striking round ever even in 25mph steady winds.

- One should play a set of tees where the carries are not beyond ones capabilities. I may need to look at my strokesaver but I don't recall any overly long ones at Woodhall Spa.

-Beyond that I don't recall that many cross hazards that force you to play over rather then through.

As I stated before - I still think its a great course.


Phil- I could not disagree with you more about Bethpage Black being a penal course. You keep giving these quotes from professionals playing a vastly TRICKED UP golf course where correct angles of play were and continure to be maintained as semi-unplayable rough. Only #4, Tillie's best par 5 ever is what could be construed as a penal golf hole IMHO.

Lou- I don't consider WF West penal either. You could almost play the whole course with a putter and I've seen it done to a considerable degree from one of our own GCA brothers   . What are the penal shots at WFW?  I think there are NUMEROUS butt puckering DIFFICULT shots (as at Bethpage Black) but penal?

I would like to hear some opinions about penal vs strategic design.  

To my thinking as I said before there are entire courses that seem to be one "do or die" shot after another.  PGA West Stadium is the posterchild from my experience as I said above.

[Mike Hendren]

I've only played Spyglass once and REALLY liked it, perhaps a little too much.  That said,

What's so penal about Spyglass?  I missed it.

Mike

[Jason Topp]

It is interesting to me that people seem to be equating "penal" with "tough."  I have always understood the term "penal" to mean that there is one way to play the hole and you either succeed or fail.  In my mind, penal generally can be thought of as involving hazards that either parallell the line of play or are perpendicular to it.  Thus,

 - a tree lined straight hole
 - an island green
 - a water hazard or bunker that crosses the entire fairway and is perpendicular to the line of play
 -  a green surrounded on all sides by bunkers

I think there can be great penal holes if they provide a special thrill (17th at TPC Sawgrass, the par 3 at Prestwick over the dune, hell's half acre at Pine Valley) but that a penal course is by definition flawed.  If the challenges are too easy they are not interesting.  If the challenges are too great, they are torture.  If the challenges are just right, the poor player is dispraportionately punished.

I think penal holes are a good change of pace, but only that.  

[JSlonis]

I know how fascinated both he and I are with this course, so...

I'd agree with Michael regarding Merion. It is certainly a unique example of a penal course.  With the new extended length it is even more so, but when the course yardage was about 6600 yards, it always seemed to play much longer. It was never a course that jumped out at you as being penal.  Rather than slapping you upside the head visually like Dye's Stadium course, Merion just pummels you when you least expect it.  Even the most subtle looking shot could spell disaster to your round at any point.  The thing about Merion is that there aren't many shots on the course where the golfer says, "I can't handle this shot"...then before you can blink...Double Bogey!

I don't know how many times I've finished a single hole or an entire round at Merion and just looked back and wondered how I just completely screwed the whole thing up.  Unfortunately...too many to count.

[Geoffrey Childs]

I like Jason's response.

Jamie- Did Merion slay you because its penal architecture or because you didn't manage your game?  I'm curious because its at the heart of penal vs strategic architecture. Is Merion just really a tough course (as I think of Bethpage and Winged Foot) or something more?

[ForkaB]

Rich -

Runyan may have been thinking out of the box or out of desperation or wrecklessly or with a wicked sense of humor  or to send up the USGA but the one thing he was not doing was thinking strategically.

Bob  

Bob

Strategy is all about integrating ambitions and capabilities.  Runyan had no chance to carry the  quarry (as would probably 95%+ of the posters here (from the current backtee)), so he made the proper strategic choice.  What else is he supposed to do--hit balls into the quarry until he runs out of them?

[JSlonis]

I like Jason's response.

Jamie- Did Merion slay you because its penal architecture or because you didn't manage your game?  I'm curious because its at the heart of penal vs strategic architecture. Is Merion just really a tough course (as I think of Bethpage and Winged Foot) or something more?

Geoff,

I'd say a little of both.  I'm usually pretty good at managing my game, meaning I don't try a lot of shots that I'm not comfortable with and I definitely pay attention to where I shouldn't miss.  I also know when I can be aggressive and when I need to play safe.  What I've found at Merion, is that even with good management, you are bound to miss some shots, and if you do so in the wrong places, the punishment is severe.  On many approach shots there may be only one good place to hit your ball or leave a missed shot, while there are 4 or 5 places that spell doom.

I would definitely call Merion penal in nature, but it is clever and subtle in its presentation to the golfer. That is what I find most interesting about the design.  I rarely feel really uncomfortable over a shot at Merion, but there is a constant subtle pressure that the course presents that really amazes me.  While there are certain shots that are right in your face, like the approach to #12 or the tee shots on #17 & #18 for example, there are many more that seem to lull the golfer into a sense of security, only to quickly punish them upon a mistake.  I'd also say Merion is a penal course even without the usually high rough.  

[Philippe Binette]

My point is:

a hole is strategic if there's a penal side to it.

change the Road hole bunker by a 1 foot deep cookie cutter bunker and it won't be as strategic or not strategic at all (it would look stupid too...)

put long grass between the lake and the pond on the 15th at Augusta and it won't be strategic.. (maybe it's coming, to frame the green)

I could cite dozen and dozen of examples

If you're not convince of my statement, watch the next Bob Hope Classic, with no rough, flat bunkers, flat fairways, flattish greens and no wind... you should understand after that.

[Philippe Binette]

But, of course there are strategies better than others...

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