St. Patrick's Northwest Ireland

[Jeff_Lewis]

Haven't been there and hadn't heard of it at all until I was informed that some sort of redesign is in the works.  Property looks quite dramatic on their website.  Anybody ever been there or know anything about the two courses?

[David_Tepper]

Jeff L. -

There have been a few threads here on St. Patrick's over the past few years. I believe one of our Irish correspondents  (either Jack Marr or John Browne, as I recall) has played there.

There was a thread here very recently (within the past week)  regarding the announcement that Jack Nicklaus' design firm has been hired by a big-time Irish development company to come in and "upgrade" one of the courses. It sounds like the plan is to turn St. Patricks into a "destination golf resort."

If you scroll down thru the first 3 or 4 pages, you should be able to find that thread.

DT

[Jeff_Lewis]

Thanks David

[Johnny_Browne]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=669603

Link to local newspaper story here in N Ireland.  I have played St Patricks and I have always felt it could make the best 36 hole links in Ireland with a top architect.  It is spectacular land - I am sad that Tom Doak or Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw are not doing it but will watch with interest to see what unfolds.
I will post some pictures of the land sometime.
Johnny Browne

[Jack_Marr]

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/story.jsp?story=669603

Link to local newspaper story here in N Ireland.  I have played St Patricks and I have always felt it could make the best 36 hole links in Ireland with a top architect.  It is spectacular land - I am sad that Tom Doak or Bill Coore/Ben Crenshaw are not doing it but will watch with interest to see what unfolds.
I will post some pictures of the land sometime.
Johnny Browne

I haven't played there. I think this apointment means the golf there will probably be unaffordable for most. What kind of record does JN have in designing links golf?

Of course, I'm not excluding the possibility that he'll do a great job.

[Joel_Stewart]

I couldn't help but notice that Tom Doak has offered a walk around at this course as an auction item for David Kahn.


I can't figure this property out and it seems a little confusing.


The family that owns Rosapenna bought the 36 hole facility called St Patricks in 2012. In 2006 the previous owners had planned to redevelop it using Jack Nicklaus.  Work was stopped shortly after they begun and apparently no work has been done since???


Now it appears that Tom Doak will be working on the project yet I didn't see any formal announcements? 


Can anyone discuss?

[Tom_Doak]

The family that owns Rosapenna bought the 36 hole facility called St Patricks in 2012. In 2006 the previous owners had planned to redevelop it using Jack Nicklaus.  Work was stopped shortly after they begun and apparently no work has been done since???


Now it appears that Tom Doak will be working on the project yet I didn't see any formal announcements? 


Can anyone discuss?

I can’t really say much, yet.  But I will be over there a couple of times this year; whether it’s just to walk around a routing, or maybe build something, remains to be seen.


The Jack Nicklaus version mentioned above started construction just before the crash in Ireland, and stopped two weeks later when the developer failed to pay the construction crew.  They left a couple of fairways denuded and blowing in the wind; those are some seriously deep blowouts today.  They could become dramatic bunkers if someone can figure out how to utilize them. 😉

[JWL]

I was fortunate enough to spend a day walking the property with Chris Cochran and Jack Nicklaus.    We had a wonderful time in a drizzling rain, but the site was so spectacular, that we just kept going in knee length tall grasses,  and sand blowouts everywhere.
One of the best sites I have ever been on ...overlooking Sheephaven's Bay.....even had a cool name.
I'm sure Tom will build an magnificent golf course on this magnificent property.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Sounds like Tom is entrenched here so I’m excited to see the outcome if and when it materialises.


For what it’s worth, I thought the best solution was 9 holes added off the back of the current Valley holes (back nine of Rosapenna OTM) and a new 18.


I was up there three or four times and finally came up with what I thought was a great solution for the add-on nine (well 10 actually - I combined two of the existing holes).

[Tom_Doak]

For what it’s worth, I thought the best solution was 9 holes added off the back of the current Valley holes (back nine of Rosapenna OTM) and a new 18.

I was up there three or four times and finally came up with what I thought was a great solution for the add-on nine (well 10 actually - I combined two of the existing holes).

Ally:


I looked at that possibility my first couple of times on site, at Mr. Casey's suggestion.  But it felt like the new half of the Valley course would use up a lot of the prettiest land, and the new 18 would be fairly cut off from the sea, and neither course would get to the level they hope to get.


But when we started talking about the business side of it, I said that I didn't think having three or four very good courses would serve them as well as adding one great course to what they had.  It's not like they are going to draw enough people up to that remote spot to need four courses.  But if they can draw in a higher-paying clientele with a new, great course, the others will make more money, too.

[Adam Lawrence]

Yes, I agree with Tom. Rosapenna doesn't need more golf per se. What it needs is a true marquee course to elevate the whole place.


It's quite a brief actually. 'Build us a top ten Irish course, and if you don't do so you've failed.'

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, I agree with Tom. Rosapenna doesn't need more golf per se. What it needs is a true marquee course to elevate the whole place.


It's quite a brief actually. 'Build us a top ten Irish course, and if you don't do so you've failed.'

If I can't deliver a top ten Irish course on that piece of ground, I will indeed have failed -- no matter what the brief was!

[Ally Mcintosh]

For what it’s worth, I thought the best solution was 9 holes added off the back of the current Valley holes (back nine of Rosapenna OTM) and a new 18.

I was up there three or four times and finally came up with what I thought was a great solution for the add-on nine (well 10 actually - I combined two of the existing holes).

Ally:


I looked at that possibility my first couple of times on site, at Mr. Casey's suggestion.  But it felt like the new half of the Valley course would use up a lot of the prettiest land, and the new 18 would be fairly cut off from the sea, and neither course would get to the level they hope to get.


But when we started talking about the business side of it, I said that I didn't think having three or four very good courses would serve them as well as adding one great course to what they had.  It's not like they are going to draw enough people up to that remote spot to need four courses.  But if they can draw in a higher-paying clientele with a new, great course, the others will make more money, too.

Yes, I agree that the best result is there if the brief ends up being only one 18 hole course. That way both the sea holes (continued valley) and the segment of land adjoining Sandy Hills that contains some spectacular blow-outs can be combined as one great course.


My suggestion came about as it was clear there was not enough room for 36. I know the Caseys had been thinking along similar lines.


If you have persuaded them otherwise, then I think that is probably best for all. It also has the added advantage of not messing yet again with the OTM course.


Ally

[Adam Lawrence]

Yes, I agree with Tom. Rosapenna doesn't need more golf per se. What it needs is a true marquee course to elevate the whole place.


It's quite a brief actually. 'Build us a top ten Irish course, and if you don't do so you've failed.'

If I can't deliver a top ten Irish course on that piece of ground, I will indeed have failed -- no matter what the brief was!

Alright then, top five. Quite a bit harder!

[Dan_Callahan]

I'm heading to the Open in July, and then was planning on spending 2-3 weeks in Donegal, doing some writing and playing courses in the northwest. Is St. Patrick's worth a visit?

[Tom_Doak]

Yes, I agree with Tom. Rosapenna doesn't need more golf per se. What it needs is a true marquee course to elevate the whole place.


It's quite a brief actually. 'Build us a top ten Irish course, and if you don't do so you've failed.'

If I can't deliver a top ten Irish course on that piece of ground, I will indeed have failed -- no matter what the brief was!

Alright then, top five. Quite a bit harder!

Yes, that will be quite a bit harder.  But I suppose that's what they want.

[Tom_Doak]

I'm heading to the Open in July, and then was planning on spending 2-3 weeks in Donegal, doing some writing and playing courses in the northwest. Is St. Patrick's worth a visit?

Dan:


There's a good chance I will be around there right after The Open.  Best to email me a couple of weeks before then to see what is the status of things.

[jeffwarne]

Yes, I agree with Tom. Rosapenna doesn't need more golf per se. What it needs is a true marquee course to elevate the whole place.


It's quite a brief actually. 'Build us a top ten Irish course, and if you don't do so you've failed.'

If I can't deliver a top ten Irish course on that piece of ground, I will indeed have failed -- no matter what the brief was!

Alright then, top five. Quite a bit harder!

Yes, that will be quite a bit harder.  But I suppose that's what they want.

Is there room for subtlety/playability in that land without a lot of dirt movement?
and would the Casey's defer to your judgement on that? i.e. the "Top 5" mandate scares me
i.e. more OTM original front nine (I guess much of what's left of the old front is now the back nine)
My feet certainly hurts after Sandy Links-dramatic but less memorable in its repetitive unrelenting drama

[jeffwarne]

But when we started talking about the business side of it, I said that I didn't think having three or four very good courses would serve them as well as adding one great course to what they had.  It's not like they are going to draw enough people up to that remote spot to need four courses.  But if they can draw in a higher-paying clientele with a new, great course, the others will make more money, too.

This is true-they've suffered with too much hodge podge of golf(OTM changed so many times in my 25 years of going there-nearly always getting worse-and confusing to describe), and not enough identity.


Similar(but different) to Ballyliffin ending up with two inter routed courses to the point where you can't remember many holes.(at Ballyliffin that is)


A great course would do wonders for them and for Portsalon

[Dan_Callahan]

Dan:


There's a good chance I will be around there right after The Open.  Best to email me a couple of weeks before then to see what is the status of things.

Will do. Thanks.


Only courses I've seen in Ireland are Portrush, Sligo, Strandhill and Lahinch. Looking forward to having an extended period to leisurely pick my way around the northwest.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Yes, I agree with Tom. Rosapenna doesn't need more golf per se. What it needs is a true marquee course to elevate the whole place.


It's quite a brief actually. 'Build us a top ten Irish course, and if you don't do so you've failed.'

If I can't deliver a top ten Irish course on that piece of ground, I will indeed have failed -- no matter what the brief was!

Alright then, top five. Quite a bit harder!

Yes, that will be quite a bit harder.  But I suppose that's what they want.

Is there room for subtlety/playability in that land without a lot of dirt movement?
and would the Casey's defer to your judgement on that? i.e. the "Top 5" mandate scares me
i.e. more OTM original front nine (I guess much of what's left of the old front is now the back nine)
My feet certainly hurts after Sandy Links-dramatic but less memorable in its repetitive unrelenting drama

I guess that by this point, Tom has spent a lot longer looking at the land than I have but I see the land broken in to four main segments:


One is the natural extension of the Valley holes, alongside the sea and with the same subtle land movement.


The second is a quite spectacular segment that previously hosted some of the Tra Mor holes. It is adjacent to the Sandy Hills boundary and is characterised by some spectacular blow outs. More elevation change and undulation here and potential for a couple of more dramatic green sites, perhaps a couple of horizon / sea backdrops if Tom is so inclined.


The third area is the central hill / dune that can bring elevation change a la Gullane, bring in some great views, nice green sites but with fairly simple ground contours.


Final area (perhaps the biggest) is inland from the central hill and is characterised by quite violent small to mid-sized dunes (all without too much elevation change), ability to route some quite special holes in here.


All in all, the course should be able to use all areas with very little earth movement tee to green. I suspect a few of the green sites will need to be somewhat created and a few small dunes altered / removed here and there.


Be a nice mix, Jeff. Should land perfectly half way between the Valley type holes and the Sandy Hills type holes.


Of course, Tom probably sees it differently.

[Tom_Doak]

I guess that by this point, Tom has spent a lot longer looking at the land than I have but I see the land broken in to four main segments:


One is the natural extension of the Valley holes, alongside the sea and with the same subtle land movement.


The second is a quite spectacular segment that previously hosted some of the Tra Mor holes. It is adjacent to the Sandy Hills boundary and is characterised by some spectacular blow outs. More elevation change and undulation here and potential for a couple of more dramatic green sites, perhaps a couple of horizon / sea backdrops if Tom is so inclined.


The third area is the central hill / dune that can bring elevation change a la Gullane, bring in some great views, nice green sites but with fairly simple ground contours.


Final area (perhaps the biggest) is inland from the central hill and is characterised by quite violent small to mid-sized dunes (all without too much elevation change), ability to route some quite special holes in here.

All in all, the course should be able to use all areas with very little earth movement tee to green. I suspect a few of the green sites will need to be somewhat created and a few small dunes altered / removed here and there.

Be a nice mix, Jeff. Should land perfectly half way between the Valley type holes and the Sandy Hills type holes.

Of course, Tom probably sees it differently.

No, we see it the same, but I am probably connecting the pieces together a bit differently than you would have.  It only took me four years to come up with a routing I really liked !


I used the face of the hill [your third area] as little as possible, and concentrated the holes in the other three areas. 


One of the hardest parts for me was the extension of the Valley.  You can't see the bay when you are down in there, plus part of it had been torn up in the last go-round.  One of my last steps in the routing was to reverse the way I'd had those holes, and come in from somewhere new.


I will let you know when I'm back that way if you want to see the final version.

[Ally Mcintosh]

Thanks Tom. Would love to.

[Thomas Dai]

This area of Donegal is a stunning and friendly, although pretty remote, part of the world, certainly one of my personal favourites, and the thought of a top-10 let alone a top-5 Irish course in the area has my internal Spinal Tap dial set at 11 in anticipation (Doak Scale 11!!).
Already there are 45 Rosapenna holes and with the likes of Portsalon, Dunfanaghy, Cruit Island, Gweedore, and Narin & Portnoo all within approx 1 hr 45 mins, and a few others not that much further away, the thought of another 18-holes added at Rosapenna is well, ‘yippee!’ time. Shame that Otway has now closed.
For those who don’t know the area here’s a Googlemap link which even shows some of the abandoned but still being mowed fairways of the previous 36-hole incarnation of St Patrick’s - https://www.google.com/maps/@55.172704,-7.8191547,13z/data=!3m1!1e3
Atb

[Ben Stephens]

Hi Tom and Ally,


Any chance that you can both do a rough outline sketch where your initial routings would have been for 18 holes on this site.


Cheers
Ben