[T_MacWood]

Westward Ho! had a dozen places where holes crossed, Prestwick had a similar number. Is Old Tom Morris responsible for this phenomenon or did he inherit it from older layouts?

[ForkaB]

The Old Course had 18 crossing holes when OTM grew up there.  It probably influenced him.

Oops, make that 22 crossing holes........

[T_MacWood]

Rich
I thought you said OTM had hand in relieving the crossings at TOC or was that Robertson?

Was he responsible for the crossings at Prestwick and Westward Ho?

[ForkaB]

No, Tom, I said "The Old Course had 18 crossing holes when OTM grew up there."  Go back to sleep and post when you are less groggy, please.

[T_MacWood]

Well thankfully we've settled that issue, OTM had nothing to do with the expanding and widening, which relieved the crossing and congestion.

Now if you could answer the crossing question regarding Prestwick and North Devon...although I will understand if you recuse yourself since you were not alive when OTM was doing his thing or barely around and quite young.

Praise Hadji.

[ForkaB]

Tom

In your grogginess, Your Grogginess, you missed the key words "when OTM grew up there."  After he grew up he widened the course and all was hunky dory.

[John Goodman]

Besides TOC, what courses have crossing holes today?  I can think of 1 and 18 at Royal Ashdown Forest; 4 and 9 (I believe) at Sam Ryder's course, Verulam, in St Alban's.  Are there others?

[THuckaby2]

Strangely - or maybe not - there are two courses within 10 miles or so of each other in Oakland, CA, USA that have crossing holes in play even today:

Claremont CC
Sequoyah CC.

We've discussed them before.  There are also quite a few others listed in the great book Classic Golf Hole Design, by Graves/Cornish.

As for who started this quirk of design, we'll let the geezers fight it out.

 

[TEPaul]

I believe Mallow G.C. in Mallow Ireland has a cross and a partial cross. I played the course for an entire week every morning at daybreak and alone and I could be wrong about that. Maybe I just got lost on the course---it wouldn't be the first time and I doubt it'll be the last time. It wasn't really my fault though because it was so early every day I never saw a single person out there to ask the entire week except somebody from the maintence crew but I hit him with a 278 yard blind 9-iron (I swear to God that course was really firm and fast) and he ran away like a red-assed jack rabbit. So there was never anyone to ask. To be honest with you as cool as that week was all alone at Mallow G.C. the course was still a bit too crowded for my tastes.

[T_MacWood]

I believe Woods Hole and Indianwood-New have crossing holes.

Rich
Is he responsible for the crossing holes at Prestwick and Westward Ho?

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

According to C&W Old Tom was responsible for Westward Ho! and the crossing holes there;

"The most prominent name in the world of golf in the late 1800s, Old Tom Morris was called upon to modify a number of ancient links. He also created new courses on superb linksland. But his results were sometimes curious. For example, his layout Westward Ho! (Royal North Devon) originally had twelve holes that crossed one another."

And in their book Royal North Devon (Westward Ho!) is attributed to Old Tom in 1874.

But now that the validity of everything that's been written heretofore is being questioned I guess one should ask who the hell are Cornish and Whitten and what the hell did they think they know?  

[T_MacWood]

TE
In his golf biography Horace Hutchinson details the early years of Westward Ho! (he grew up there and his uncle was one of the founders) according to him Old Tom did not lay out the first links at Royal North Devon....it was gentleman by the name of Molesworth.

Did OTM redesign the course with crossing holes or did he simply consolidate the existing course (crossing holes and all)?

C&W also said OTM was responsible for inventing routings with loops of nine-holes, citing Muirfield.

17

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

Actually it appears C&W cited RCD as an example of a course Old Tom did returning nines, one being clock-wise, the other counter-clock-wise. In 2001 I happened to see that old routing reputed to be Morris's.

Well, then if HH grew up at Royal North Devon and wrote there may've been a course there by Moleworth before Morris got there then what did Horace have to say about the preceding course having crossing holes?  If he said nothing then perhaps you could ask your friend Ron Whitten what may've led them to attribute the twleve crossing holes at Royal North Devon (Westward HO!) to OTM if it seems so important to know.  

Actually Alwoodley has a cross---#3 and #16. Maybe it wasn't an original cross but it is now.  
 
 

[Tony_Muldoon]

As I posted recently I'm currently waiting to hear if I've been accepted at Upminster G&BC, a course with no known architect.

One of the things that attracts me is that holes 4 (par 3) and 6 (par 4, SI1) cross hole 5 a shortish downhill par 4.  At my interview I told the commitee how much I liked this and said "it all gets a bit Scotish at that point".  One of them gave me such a look that I might yet be blackballed.

Interesting that Sean mentioins Braid...

[JNC Lyon]

I remember reading in the Sebonack article that the course had a bye hole which crossed the first hole, no?  I also remember Ron Whitten writing that a crossover hole would ONLY work at a very private course that got little play.  However, the only course I have played with this routing is the Dartmouth course, where not only do the holes cross, but they both cross a ravine, and you cannot see the players teeing off on the other hole.  Funny, I thought it worked quite well, with 18 being a great finisher as a half par hole (470 yards) over and around the ravine.

Getting back to the topic at hand, does Lahinch not have a crossover hole, the Klondyke?  This was originally designed by OTM, no?  Therefore I would guess he is at least partially responsible for the phenomenon.  But then again, isn't a crossver hole just designed to get the most out of the land that one can, so wouldn't the concept by its very nature evolve rather than be established by one architect???

[Bill_McBride]

Tom Paul, the crossing of #3 and #16 Alwoodley is original.  I saw the original drawing last July and there it was!

The wildest crossing holes I've seen are at Brocket Hall just NW of London outside the M25, a Peter Allis design.  #3 and #16 again, criss crossing over a 60 yard wide river in front of a giant replica of the Swilken Burn bridge!  I am not making this up and haven't started drinking yet today.  

[T_MacWood]

Tom MacW:

Actually it appears C&W cited RCD as an example of a course Old Tom did returning nines, one being clock-wise, the other counter-clock-wise. In 2001 I happened to see that old routing reputed to be Morris's.

Well, then if HH grew up at Royal North Devon and wrote there may've been a course there by Moleworth before Morris got there then what did Horace have to say about the preceding course having crossing holes?  If he said nothing then perhaps you could ask your friend Ron Whitten what may've led them to attribute the twleve crossing holes at Royal North Devon (Westward HO!) to OTM if it seems so important to know.  

Actually Alwoodley has a cross---#3 and #16. Maybe it wasn't an original cross but it is now.  

TE
County Down in 1892 (the links OTM approved) did not have returning nines either.

HGH loved the original Westward Ho! Two of the courses already mentioned on this thread that had a couple of crossing holes were designed/redsigned by Hutchison: Brancaster and Ashdown Forest. Perhaps an ode to St. Andrews.

[TEPaul]

Tom MacW:

May I ask why you started this thread about crossing holes?

I wonder why Cornish and Whitten wrote that OTM routed nines at RCD that not only returned but that one went clockwise and the other counter clock-wise? Have you spoken to your friend Ron Whitten about his shoddy research yet?

[Tony_Muldoon]

Golf de Biarritz "Le Phare" has the 15th cross the 14th.  There is now a championship tee so that it crosses the line of the 17th as well!  The Peugeot Guide says that "This course was deigned by Willie Dunn but it has seen so much change that there is virtually nothing left of the original links."

Sean I would definitely be blackballed for referring to the Bowling section as Boule players.

[T_MacWood]

TE
Both courses had so many crossing holes...I was curious if Old Tom had anything to do with their crazy routings.

Everyone makes mistakes....especially when working with an ungodly amount of information. In The Golf Course they also claimed Muirfield was an example of OTM's loop routing.

[James Bennett]

Moortown's 5th tee (back tee) plays directly acoss the centre of the 4th green.  If you topped your drive and hit it say 15 yards, you could be closest to the pin on #4 (or even have a chinese hole in one ). This tee placement gives a better angle to the dog-leg left short par 4.  Don't know how often the tee  is used though.

A local club here (Murray Bridge) has crossing holes on #2 (230 yard par 3) and #17 (165 yard par 3).  The holes cross near the mid-point of each hole, and the crossing has never been a problem to my knowledge.

My comment about the topped drive above reminds me of the old story of the canny caddy at The Old Course.  The golfer succumbed to the pressure on the first teee and dribbled a weak heel sharp left, onto the adjacent #18 green.  The caddy, in typical dry brogue said,
"well sir, you have that to go roun the Old Course in two!"

James B

[TEPaul]

"TE
Both courses had so many crossing holes...I was curious if Old Tom had anything to do with their crazy routings."

Tom MacW:

Why were you curious if OTM had anything to do with their crazy routings?

[ForkaB]

The 16th (445) at my home course has one hole which crosses two other holes!  First you drive off over the 15th green, and then your second is hit across the 17th fairway.

Not only that, but if you slice your tee shot, it will land in the 12th fairway and your second shot must be hit over the 12th tee and the 11th green (and the 17th fairway too, of course).

And no, Old Tom Morris did not design our course, I think.......

Crossing Holes are very common in Scotland.

[T_MacWood]

Because I don't know the answer to the question and I would like to discover who did what.

"33"

[TEPaul]

"....and I would like to discover who did what."

Tom MacW:

Would you like to discover if it was OTM or someone else who did crossing holes there for any particular reason you can share with us?

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