Cutting Down Trees vs. Planting Trees

[wsmorrison]

"I was intrigued by Flynn's advocacy of seperation, something Crump favored as well.

The concept of seperation has led to clausterphobic corridor golf in America."

Pat,

Yep, the separation of holes as advocated by Crump and Flynn has been bastardized by the ever-narrowing efforts by green committees that wanted to fill in the vacuum left by narrowed fairways and also make things harder.  The concept has been altered and golf has suffered as a result.

Things are starting to change and that can be traced to a greater understanding of what was intended by the architect and as built.   Original form and function replacing the folly.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wayne,

Beautification programs, or the feminization of golf courses became excessively popular over the last 40 years.

TV didn't help the situation.

As much as I like Lehigh, it's a classic example of green and/or beautification committees gone wild.  Every tee, every green, every cart turn around or parking area and every area where the opportunity to inject flowers, shrubs and the like exists, is taken.

In addition, this unbridled need to plant flowers and shrubs hits the green budget, depriving superintendents of the funds and labor that need to be concentrated on the field of play.

Golf courses aren't gardens.

If it's not Flynn's fault, it must be TEPaul's fault.

[PThomas]

Mark - I have played links/links-style courses in this country - haven't made it across the pond - yet -- but I still don't think that all trees are bad......

[mike_malone]

 Wayne,

   I agree 100% with your post about Flynn's strategic tree plantings. My point is that planting trees that eliminate the design elements ahead  of you is bad. It is not so much about what a guy like Flynn said or did , but how later on green cmtes.  planted trees without regard to his intent. There are examples of them "separating" holes with trees without regard to the architectural damage. I guess you could say if he advocated planting trees to create a dogleg that he planted them "in the line of play" , but I would say he created the ideal line of play by planting the trees.

   For instance, if there are bunkers or an elevated green or a narrow green or any other imaginative element designed to challenge the player or make one think you don't cover it up with an evergreen.

   I think trees can be essential on some courses , but they have agronomic and playability issues that must be taken into account.


     I trust what Flynn did with trees but not the average green cmte. member.

[Mark_Fine]

Paul,
I agree.  I love trees as well and I am by no means saying they are bad.  But I do believe there is a limited (or maybe I should say a proper) place for them on golf courses.  
Mark

[mike_malone]

 Paul Thomas,

      Punching out is okay for those penal courses. If you like like that style , go for it. What bothers me is the use of evergreen trees on parkland courses  designed for the recovery shots here in the Northeastern part of the U.S.


     These trees were often planted too close to the fairway. Since you can't hit under them or just past the trunk they require the punch out shot. If the original designer intended an uncertain shot from the rough with  an angled green that sloped away from you  then I have a problem with those trees.


  Why plant trees that have a root stucture that stays along the ground?

 Why plant trees that eliminate the movement of air , sunlight, or the recovery shot ?

    If we just got rid of the evergreens that did not have safety value it would be enough for me.



 

[Mark_Fine]

The September issue of Golf Tips Magazine has our article on trees.  It is called Tree Times: architects and arborists.  I think most people here (especially you Mike    ) would find it interesting.  If you did read it, let me know what you think?

[Brent Hutto]

Why pines? Is that all that grows in the area? Don't they grow low to the ground and eliminate creative escapes?

Ed,

Well, they're not the only thing that grows but they're the easiest thing to establish and thrive with no attention. Growing pine trees in an environment like Columbia CC (sandy loam, small-scale rolling ground, plenty of rain most years) is easy as pie.

I'm no arborist but the kinds of pines they have on the golf course and that I have in my yard tend at maturity to have their lowest big limbs about 15-25 feet up the tree, which grows eventually to 80 feet tall or so. Definitely not low limb spreaders which is probably why they make popular buffers between fairways. While they're young (first five years or so) the limbs are low but they're so small they only spread out about an arm's length from the tree.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Mark,

 My post was in response to the issues raised in the posts previous to mine. Planting trees as hazards, trees inpact on healthy turfgrass and the old idea of having a tree farm/ nursery on your golf course. I do not advocate removing all trees from a golf course. I am well aware of Flynn's views and essays on the subject of trees but as always I enjoy reading your posts.

[Mark_Fine]

Sean,
I figured we were on the same page.  As you know, Flynn liked trees and did use them at times essentially as hazards.  If I could post pictures I could show some photos of trees that Flynn kept that would make you wonder.  Talk about controversial    Problem is, some people/committees think these examples are the norm rather than the exception and feel justified in keeping and/or planting trees anywhere on the course.  

Again, there is is place for trees on golf courses.  Some architects just feel there are/were more places than others do.
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

If you want, email the photographs and I'll post them for you.  I'd like to see them in any case.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
I just sent you three photos now.  If you could post them that would be great.  I think the one looking back from the green will really make people think.  That tree is quite controversial and directly in the line of play.  It must be over 100 years old.  Can you imagine what it looks like when it is all leafed out  
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Mark,

It looks like we were there about the same time of year.  I used my photo because it was a bit clearer.  Thanks for jogging my memory on this one; it is a good example of using trees to influence strategy.  I believe this is the 13th hole at the USNA golf course in Annapolis, MD.  I didn't get your photo from the green looking backwards it was from a spot closer the two trees.

[Mark_Fine]

Wayne,
Thanks for posting.  That other photo should be to you by now.
Mark

[wsmorrison]

Here's the same hole looking backwards.  These trees probably predate the course and were used strategically as can readily be seen.  The Flynn drawing shows the fairway was pushed further to the left (as seen in the photo).

[mike_malone]

 They should not have planted those other trees left of the old ones. That is the recovery area. Are there bunkers by the green? If not I like it.

[Ted Kramer]

I like the look and strategy involved with this type of design.

-Ted

[Mark_Fine]

Thanks Wayne.  

Mayday,
I hope no one from Rolling Green sees these photos.  If they do, they might justify never taking down any more trees  

[David Panzarasa]

Thank you for the photo and showing how a tree is used strategically....but this brings me to wonder how or why other trees do not bring in strategy? Might you have a picture of a tree(s) that should be cut down and dont bring in strategy?

[Mark_Fine]

David,
If I ever would take the time to learn how to post pictures I would put some up here.  One of the things you have to remember about trees is that most of them have some kind influence on strategy.  The question you have to ask (especially on older courses) is "how does that tree/s impact the design intent and original strategy of the architect"?  There are many other things to consider as well but this is one of the most important ones.  

We had a tree taken out in front of a fairway bunker on #11 at Cherry Hills right before the Women's Open this year.  If the tree had stayed, it would have all but prevented the ladies from tempting to carry the bunker beyond it to shorten their second shot to the green.  With the tree removed, the temptation was restored and many of the ladies tried that line of play.  Some succeeded, some failed.  

Options create interest and interest is what creates greats golf holes.  Many times trees can elimate those options and force one dimensional play.  As such they are "strategic" but in a negative sense.
Mark