Early North American golf course architecture

[Mike_Cirba]

Putting on my most diabolical Asian voice;

"Dr. Quest, perhaps you would like to meet our...heh heh heh...pets"

Putting on my deepest, most intellectually authoritative voice;

"Race...they're deadly lizards".

Putting on my young Indian kid voice, shreiking slightly;

"Johnny...the Gila Monster is eating Bandit!"

Tom MacWood...only on GCA might one find a Johnny Quest reference.  God, I love this place!  

[ForkaB]

Mike

Now I know that I am Dr. Evil, and Tom Paul is #2 and Tom MacWood is Mini Me, but who is this Johnny Quest guy and where does Cooreshaw fit into the equation?

[Mike_Cirba]

Mike

Now I know that I am Dr. Evil, and Tom Paul is #2 and Tom MacWood is Mini Me, but who is this Johnny Quest guy and where does Cooreshaw fit into the equation?

Rich,

I'm sure you were busy studying while I was watching Johnny Quest episodes.  



This must be an updated version, because even in my pre-pubescent years, I would have remembered the babe!  

[T_MacWood]

I'm not sure if Rich has uncovered the interesting Bandit connection at Dornoch as yet, I know its not in Dr. John McLeod's History, so probably not.

But anyway, apparently the original nine hole course at Dornoch (pre-Old Tom) had famous hole known as "The Mongrel", dominated by a central hazard aptly named 'Bandit's Bung'. That hole was designed by Bandit in association with John Sutherland. I believe that bunker remains, but has been re-named 'Goodale'.

Also, getting back to Bandit's important influence upon American golf design. In 1892 a young aspiring dancer by the name of Donald Ross was bitten by Bandit (he was in Dornoch with Old Tom laying out the second nine). Ross was forced give up his dance career, recouped at St. Andrew's learning club making (it was the least they could do) and the rest is history.

Hadji be praised.

[TEPaul]

This was the initial post of Philip Spogard who started this thread:

"Who has had the biggest impact on golf course architecture in America?
I would go for C.B.Macdonald and the impact made by the National Golf Links. He started a new mentality.
However he was not in my opinion the most creative architect - copying several holes. I think there has been more creative architects later on who invented more than C.B."

Assuming Philip is asking about early American architecture as the title of his thread suggests and not all American architecture, my sense is that Philip immediately answered his own question pretty accurately. C.B Macdonald probably didn’t become known as the “Father” of American golf architecture in the world of early American golf course architecture for no good reason. Despite the primary influence of Macdonald on early American architecture Philip wonders if he was the most innovative in architecture of his  contemporaries. Philip implies he doesn’t think so, and I for one, tend to agree with him. Macdonald (with Raynor) pretty much stuck to his initial templates while others of his contemporaries were into all kinds of impressive innovations from around 1910 on.

Seems to me the major influences on golf course architecture as well as a fairly comprehensive tracking of the entire evolution of golf architecture has already been written a number of times and written pretty accurately and pretty well.

In my opinion, for an albeit general but accurate description of the evolution of golf course architecture and its primary influences both in architects, movements, courses etc one can’t do much better than Part One of Cornish & Whitten’s ‘The Architects of Golf”. If one wants to supplement their fairly general piece with more in-depth detail then that too is available and mostly has been for a few generations. The point is there doesn’t seem to be anything out there deep in the shadows and recesses of early golf and architecture to suggest some new primary influences on golf architecture could or should exist which has not heretofore been recognized and written about. This definitely takes into consideration that many of those early architects and a few others around that business wrote and wrote comprehensively about what and who was influencing them. Is there any real reason for any of us today to assume that there was something fundamentally inaccurate or completely missing from those overall chronicle of golf architecture's evolution? Is there any reason to think they somehow missed something that was a fundamental influence on them and what they were doing or that for some reason they felt they should not admit it or recognize it?  I, for one, don’t think so.

We have on this website a couple of really dedicated research mavens into golf course architecture. That’s of course a good thing but it seems they often get so fixated on various minutiae in the long evolution and chronicle of golf and golf course architecture that they tend to completely lose the forest for the trees. It seems this results in them occasionally assigning far more importance to various events, people, movements etc than they likely deserve. It’s probably no wonder----these researchers probably want to go on record for having uncovered who invented the wheel or how, in a golf architectural context!

I say the primary influences on the evolution of golf architecture are known---those books and accounts have been written. If one wants to know golf architecture's primary influences at any particular time they should simply read those books. But if someone wants to prove they’re historically inaccurate somehow, in my opinion, they’ll first need to prove how that could’ve happened.

This thread bounced around to some other more specific subjects such as Old Tom Morris’s influence on early American architecture and then to a discussion of whether OTM was even a quality architect. Again, I think C&W spoke to that point best----eg generally Old Tom did only what was asked of him in that early time and what was asked of him on courses other than TOC was pretty basic, pretty simple and pretty quick and cheap. What if Old Tom had been given both the time and the money to do a really good course like Willie Park Jr at Sunningdale? If Old Tom had that opportunity what would he have done? Unfortunately we’ll never know because as C&W said he didn’t have that kind of time nor was he apparently ever given that kind of money.

In my opinion, the research mavens on this site should do what they’re really good at, and that’s filling in some of the minutiae of golf courses and their evolutions. But perhaps they could also get into discussing some of those interesting happenstances such as the widening of TOC and what that eventually meant to golf architecture even if those who actually did it back then may’ve had no idea what that might bring to golf and golf architecture particularly since they may've been doing it for entirely different reasons.

On that note Bob Crosby said;

“You have to smile a wry smile indeed when it hits you that the width of TOC, one of the features that makes TOC so great and one of the most important features in great architecture generally, was a by-product of changes made for other reasons.
Another case where the truth is more interesting than fiction.”

I couldn’t agree with Bob more. There’re other major influences on golf course architecture that were apparently so general and so gradual that their massive influence were barely noticed if they were even noticed at all. Obviously one of those massive influences on golf and architecture was the complete greening and softening of American golf courses in the latter half of the last century to such a general extent that virtually half the game of golf was lost in the process while noone seemed to notice.

If we’re going to discuss and write about some primary influences on golf architecture that may be basically unrecognized those influences should take that type and not the type where we argue over who ordered the widening of TOC or did Robertson do four yard and Morris the rest or did Robertson do forty yards and then Morris just maintained the “look” of it for the next 38 years?  

[ForkaB]

Tom

I think that you (and others) mistake essays for historical treatises.  Most of the stuff the Old Dead Guys (or even their hagiographers) wrote were essays, not investigations into the facts of what happened prior to (or even during) their lives.

Whatever facts there are remain to revealed, and most of that reveleation is and will be in the dirt, and not in the dust of old (or even new) unsubstantiated opinions.  IMHO, of course.

[TEPaul]

Rich:

I have no idea what you're talking about. Many of those old dead guys wrote about the things that concerned them at the time, and not about what their place was or would be in the evolution of golf architecture and architecture's history. Others over the generations have written those accounts and I think pretty well and pretty accurately. That any of us think we can find something that those who preceded us missed or were so unaware of as to require all that literature of golf and golf architecture's primary influences to be reanalyzed, reinterpreted and rewritten is, to me, laughable.

[Mike_Cirba]

I knew it!

That Johnny Quest picture above is from some newer, obviously fraudulent version!  

No wonder we purists are so frustrated.

Here's the original gang....they were 2 men, 2 young boys, and a dog....travelling and adventuring.

What the hell was Hanna-Barbara thinking??!  



Perhaps the Rev. Donald Wildmon's organization objected strenuously and boycotted sponsors, or perhaps Pat Robertson told Johnny and Race and Dr. Quest and Hadji that they shouldn't expect the good lord to help them defeat evil-doers unless they brought a hot looking, nubile woman onto their team, but I don't think I like this newer version of the show.

I can guarantee you that Tom MacWood is seriously pissed and wondering who did this butcher job with a TV classic!  

Tom P and Rich...if you guys want to really contribute some good research, find out who introduced the hot babe to Johnny Quest and hunt them down and....

[Tony_Muldoon]

"The course (Machrihanish) was planned by Old Tom Morris...Old Tom was thoroughly steeped in the taditions and spirit of the game. He was a sportsman in the best sense of the word and he had no use for arguments based on strict equity. No professional since his time has ever grasped the real sporting spirit of golf architecture like he did."

~Alister MacKenzie the Spirit of St Andrews.

[T_MacWood]

Tony
That is the consistant description you read Old Tom for the likes of Hutchinson, Guy Campbell, Darwin and others. Thoroughly steeped in the history of the game, a true sportsman, generous, kind, a good arbitrator.

Do you notice MacKenzie wrote nothing about his design skills? There is a reason for that.

Mike
I'm not at all happy about the tampering, and I am officially boycotting the newer version....although I must say Bandit is looking very good for his age. He is timeless.

Praise Hadji.

[Sean_A]

Some of Old Tom is still kicking about.

Prestwick:

#2 All Tom
#3 Tom green plus some fairway
#15 green
#16 green
Alps All Tom

Machrihanish:

#1 All Tom
#14 green
#15 All Tom
#17 green

Dornoch: Rich already hit on this.

Nairn:

#1 green
#2 green
#4 green
#6 All Tom
#7 green

Lahinch:The Dell

Lundin: Already hit upon.

Wallasey: The 12th

Luffness New:

#1 fairway and green
#3 All Tom
#7 All Tom, but shortened
#9 All Tom, but lengthened
#12 green
#13 green
#16 green

St. Andrews New is essentially Tom's routing.

Cruden Bay:

#6 green
#7 green
#9 All Tom, shortened 60 yards
#10 All Tom, lengthened
#15 green

Old Tom is also associated with the following clubs, though it is not known how much, if any of his work remains:

Moray
Co. Down
Westward Ho!
Blairgowie
Ladybank
Portrush
Crail
Elie
Castletown
Carnoustie
plus a whole host of lesser known courses

Given what is left, namely The Dell, The Alps and the 1st at Machrihanish, three of the most celebrated and thrilling holes in golf,  I am willing to go out on a limb and say Old Tom was and possibly remains very influential architecturally.  I would have thought that most architects would give their left nut to lay claim to just one of these holes.

Whether he was more influential than CB Mac, I don't know.  I offer the suggestion that it is possible, but not likely.  There are a number of reasons for saying this.  I think Rich is correct in writing that Old Tom catches too much guff when he really deserves praise for all aspects of his professional life.  

Ciao

Sean  

[TEPaul]

Sean:

For my part I don't know those holes you mentioned---how good they are or not. In other words, I've never seen any of them. I'll let others judge their everlasting quality. Didn't Old Tom also do the 18th at TOC?

As I've mentioned a few times on this thread, I think C&W describe and explain Old Tom's architecture best---eg he did what he was asked to do which might not have been what we think or expect. If some of those courses are simple and rudimentary does that mean to me Old Tom wasn't a good architect? Not at all, and particularly if he was responsible for other golf holes that remain that have truly earned respect over the years.

That's the key to me and that's a whole lot more important in my book than parsing and arguing whether or not Mackenzie, Macdonald or Tillinghast gave him specific kudos for his architecture.

[T_MacWood]

Sean
You've been reading too much Kroger again.

They were playing golf at Prestwick, Dornoch, Machrihanish, Ludin, Westward Ho! and many of the others prior to Old Tom's visit (in some cases long before). We know he advised many of these clubs, what exactly he advised or did from a design perspective is unclear. A good example is Westward Ho!, Horace Hutchinson docments the early formation of the links by Captain Molesworth (I think that was his name) and some of the locals (including his uncle), Morris advised at some point regarding maintenance issues. Does Kroger claim Morris designed Westward Ho?

It is unlikely he was repsonsible for The Alps. I'm not sure about the Dell or the 1st at Machrihanish. I do know Machrihanash was redesigned by Taylor in 1914 and Guy Campbell after the war.

"The succeeding years between 1885 and 1900, may be regarded as the Dark Ages of golf architecture. In this period there was a constant and ever increasing demand for golf courses inland. The efficiency displayed in designing them was so deplorable and misguided that, so far as golf architecture and client were concerned, it was case of the blind leading the blind. The results were unfortunate in the exptreme, because of neither the designers not the contractors to whom the work was entrusted had any knowledge of the way in which Nature fashions hills, moulds a hollow, creates a fold in the ground, or engineers a slope. It was evident, however, that some one had to be found to do the work, and the choice fell mainly on three professionals--Tom Morris, Willie and Tom Dunn--to do the best that lay in their power. Towards the end of the period Willie Park, junior, also designed golf courses; but none of these men had any of the necessary qualifiactions either in experience or training, beyond the fact that they had lived and played their golf on the most famous courses of the day. When we consider the wonderful advantages which they enjoyed, it is amazing that they should have achieved such ineffectual results. they failed to produce any of the features of the course on which they were bred and born, or to realise the principles on wich they had been made. Their imagiantion took them no farther than the conception of flat gun-platform greens, invariably oblong, round or square, supported by railway embankment sides or batters..."

~~Tom Simpson (redesigned Cruden Bay)

Most everyone loved Old Tom as a man and golf figure, but the architects of the golden age were unanimous in their condemnation of the architectural practices of Morris and the rest. It is clear to anyone who has read Simpson, Colt, Alison, Macdonald, Hutchinson, Campbell, et al that Morris had no influence upon their architecture, except what not to do.

[ForkaB]

Tom MacW

Don't believe everything you read, particularly if it is such uninformed drivel as what Simpson said.  He was unborn or just a child when OTM was doing his best work, so all he knows is what he was told by others.

Exactly how many of OTM's courses did he ever visit?  How many have you seen?  Methinks both of you missed out on a lot of on the ground education.

PS--you can be in denial as long as you want, but you will never be able to refutre the facts that Sean and I have presented, hard as you may try.  Get to Machrihanish some day and tell us what is "deplorable and misguided" about that 1st hole.  Even today, it outcapes any "cape" hole that has been built since.  There are more great golf holes on Sean and my lists than Tom Simpson could ever dream of designing.
PPS--read Simpson's paragraph.  He is talking only about inland courses.  Virtually all of OTM's best work was on seaside courses.
PPPS--all new movements trash their predecessors.  The abstract expressionists trashed the impressionsists who trashed the realists who trashed the baroque who trashed the mannerists who trashed the renaissance who trashed the medievalists who tgrashed the greeks and romans who trashed the cave dwellers of Lescaux who hated the cave dwellers next door who were better hunters and had better looking women and didn't have to paint pictures of animals--they actually saw, hunted, killed and ate them!
PPPPS--Have a nice day!

[T_MacWood]

Don't believe everything you read, particularly if it is such uninformed drivel as what Simpson said.  He was unborn or just a child when OTM was doing his best work, so all he knows is what he was told by others.

In the last couple days you've recommended books written by Jarrett and McLeod, were they alive and well during Old Tom's day? How about Kroger, will we find a photo of him and OTM on the dust jacket? I don't think so.

Simpson played golf throughout Scotland and England (he was a member of Cruden Bay), and undoubtly knew his work well. His architectural partner Fowler knew OTM well; his leterary partner Wethered was member of the R&A and Dornoch, knew OTM well. The quote comes from the book, 'The Game of Golf', co-authored with Horace Hutchinson, Bernard Darwin and the Wethreds--respected authorities. They all knew Old Tom's work well. Your you-had-to-have-been-alive-with-OTM defense is sounding more and more like Pat, its the Rees Jones defenses...not good.

Regarding not believing everything you read. I don't. That is why I seek out more sources than just about anyone on this site. You might want to consider doing the same.

Actually Wethred & Simpson considered a hole Machrihanish for their ideal 18, but it wasn't the first. Do you know which hole and why they did not list the 1st?

I'm glad someone is standing up for the dark ages...better late than never. You ought to start a Tom Dunn Society. Perhaps you can get the square greens at Dornoch restored...they are quite striking.

Sean
Does Kroger list Westward Ho! as one of OTM's designs?

Did MacKenzie mention OTM's work in that quote? MacKenzie rips the architecture of that era as much as anyone.

Hadji be praised. Porscheaudischarokki.

[ForkaB]

Tommy, Tommy, Tommy

The Wethereds first visited Dornoch in 1913, well after Old Tom was deid!  Maybe daddy Newton (Simpson's partner in historical crime) knew the old guy from St. Andrews, but the important Wethereds (sprogs Joyce and Roger) would have been oblivious.

Wonder why they kept coming up to Dornoch year after year if OTM's course was such crap?

[T_MacWood]

Newton Wethered was Tom Simpson's literary partner. He was not a big fan of OTM's work. Dornoch was a lovely spot to holiday, even if the golf course had its shortcomings. I wouldn't be surprised if the old man didn't have a hand in the improvments over the years.

I'm still waiting for you to establish who did what at Dornoch.

[ForkaB]

Newton Wethered was Tom Simpson's literary partner. He was not a big fan of OTM's work. Dornoch was a lovely spot to holiday, even if the golf course had its shortcomings. I wouldn't be surprised if the old man didn't have a hand in the improvments over the years.

I'm still waiting for you to establish who did what at Dornoch.

Buy my book Tom.  It says all I will ever care to say about that question.

WAIT!!!!!

Get that check out of the mailbox, Tom!  Just re-read my "Feature Interview" on this site.  It's free!

Oops there goes another royalty check.... (sing to the tune of "High Hopes")

[T_MacWood]

I'm trying to get it through inter-library loan...no luck so far, the library in Scotland that has it has been uncooperative.

[Mike_Cirba]

I got mine through the coroner in Merchantville, NJ.  Oops...wrong thread.  

[T_MacWood]

I got mine through the coroner in Merchantville, NJ.  Oops...wrong thread.  

That doesn't sound too good...I think you have the wrong site. It brings a new meaning to the phraise stiff upper lip.

Praise Hadji..

[TEPaul]

"Praise Hadji.."

Tom:

Was Hadji a good golf course architect or a poor one, in your opinion? Did Horace and the Boys have anything nice to say about Hadji's architectural talent? I haven't heard of the guy because I guess I don't read enough but from his name alone it sounds like he must've worked in good sandy soil sites.

[Mike_Cirba]

"Praise Hadji.."

Tom:

Was Hadji a good golf course architect or a poor one, in your opinion? Did Horace and the Boys have anything nice to say about Hadji's architectural talent? I haven't heard of the guy because I guess I don't read enough but from his name alone it sounds like he must've worked in good sandy soil sites.

Tom

Hadji was particularly good at finding sandy sites where the hazards were both natural and unnatural, ranging from gila monsters, evil robots, ancient cursed mummies, mad scientists, and assorted other perils awaited.

He was one of the first of the penal architects and the fact that he shared a tent with another boy (Johnny Quest) and a dog did most definitely qualify him as one of Dev Emmett's original inspirations.  In fact, Hadji's own inspiration seemingly came from the mysterious Dr. Quest (Johnny's father), and studly Race Bannon, who also shared a cozy tent.  

Of course, most of their works were created in remote corners of the world and largely escaped notice, much less the critical acclaim they should have.  Fortunately, world traveller Dev Emmett came across a few of their better courses (i.e. Gladiators Golf Club, Greek Loins Links) during one of his visits to an old friend, the secretive Duke Praline in the early 1900s, setting the stage for a school of design that is still largely felt to this day.  

[T_MacWood]

He was many things to many people. Introducing the mysteries of the east to a group of curious admirers. Much of his activities unfortunately remain a mystery. We do know he was closely associated with Old Tom by way of his dog Bandit, but this was later on. He played to a +1 at St. Georges on LI and also frequented Woking. And then he disappears; he was thought to have settled somewhere near Tibet.

Hadji be praised.

[TEPaul]

OK, I get it now---you two clowns are just funin' and foolin' around.

I thought Hadji might have been something like the "Prophet" of all Persian golf course architects according to HH and Country Life. Or at least the "Guide" of all Persian golf course architects who led them all safely out of the Land of Nod during that Age when the Sun was Dark. I suspect he might've been that and because you, Tom MacWood, can't find something written somewhere that says he wasn't indicates to me without a scintilla of doubt he was.