[Patrick_Mucci]

But , that doesn't change the fact that the majority of teeshots on the front nine at WFW (4's and 5's) are not at the level of greatness of other great courses.

Which ones ?[/color]

[mike_malone]

 No to Pinehurst. But I do hear complaints about it's status.

   Probably the best comparison for me would be the great courses of Ireland. Ballybunion, Royal County Down , and Royal Portrush usually stand above Portmarnock in most people's eyes. I think it is the teeshots and  the resulting second shot challenges  and variety that sets them apart from Portmarnock.BTW I think of Portmarnock as great.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Your analysis is probably typical of many golfers playing the course for the first time.  It takes a while to appreciate just how good some of these courses really are.  Again I go back to Pinehurst #2.  The first time you play it, many golfers are underwelmed thinking they can hit the ball anywhere off the tee.  They simply blame the greens for why they scored more than double their handicap.  It just shows how complex that "simple looking" golf course really is.  Winged Foot has some of the same.  

Play it a few more times.  If you still don't get it, read Golf Architecture in America by Thomas and then play it again    
Mark

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday Malone,

Let's confine our discussion to American courses.

Surely, when you referenced other GREAT courses you had some American courses in mind.

I would suspect that most of your playing experiences and the abundance of courses that you've played are in America.

From whom, did you hear complaints about Pinehurst # 2's status ?

What were the nature of the complaints ?

[mike_malone]

 Actually Pat it is tougher to play the great courses in America than overseas. But that is another topic.


   If I use Merion , Pine Valley , Indian Creek ( there's a "flattish" one for you ) ,Bethpage Black, Huntingdon Valley, NGLA as the great courses I have played in the last few years I find much more interest off the tee on these than WFW. Now I will admit the greens are more severe on WFW to make up for the relative blandness beforehand. I am just saying  that playing golf is from tee to green. The top courses must perform all the way from tee to green at a high level to earn their status.

[JESII]

I think some courses earn their stars with charm, some with beauty, and still others with the pure challenge presented. Winged Foot clearly falls into this last category although I challenge anyone to argue that their green are not among the most interesting in golf.

The terrain does not allow dramatic visuals, although if you ask me the use of trees and fairways direction (angles) make the driving challenge at Winged Foot as solid as you could ever ask for. To be specific to the front nine, as long as you consider challenge to be a valuable ingredient in greatness, you have to work the ball both directions, you have to make determinations from the tee as to which portion of the fairway will offer the best opportunity on the next shot, and (perhaps most GREAT) is when you miss a drive you are still alive. The player hoping to make par must hit a good drive, but the lesser player should be able to play the whole day with the same ball, and I think that is one very important ingredient of greatness in design.

No question, the greens are the strength of Winged Foot West, but if you don't drive it really damn well....well, just drive it really damn well.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mayday Malone,

Pine Valley has some of the widest fairways in golf.
In addition, I wouldn't classify lies in the fairway at PV as overly challenging.

Where's the challenge in the landing areas at BPB ?

Perhaps WFW deserves further consideration and review on your part.

One can't view the tee shot at WFW by ignoring the prefered angle of attack into the greens on the approach shots.
Despite your impression, they are connected.

The tee shots at WFW are challenging, if not demanding.
You have to place your ball in the ideal LZ in order to have the ideal angle of attack into each green.

That's the part you failed to recognize.

You also probalby missed that 10 of the 14 driving holes are doglegs, requiring decision and precision.

Of the straight away holes:

# 5 has a high left to low right sloping fairway with trees guarding the left and a bunker guarding the right.  But, the high left side is the prefered, but riskier side to hit to and approach from

# 6 has trees right and a bunker left.
Depending where the pin is, the left side, near the bunker, can be the prefered side to come in from.

# 9 is just straight away with an undulating fairway.

# 15 has a fairway that falls away from you to the left and toward a creek and trees.  The left side is the prefered, but riskier side to hit to, and from.

I think WFW is one of the most demanding driving golf courses I've played.   Far more demanding than NGLA or PV.

[mike_malone]

 Pat,

   I guess we play a different game if you think the tee shots are more demanding at WFW than PVGC or NGLA.

 I appreciate the detail in your last post.

[Mark_Fine]

Mike,
Analyzing a course based on your own game is never a good thing unless you are simply developing your own favorites list.  Winged Foot is definitely more demanding off the tee then the courses you mentioned.  You need to play it again as you missed it.
Mark

[mike_malone]

 Mark,

   My statement about the tee shots was not based on my game but on the view from the tee and the lack of contour in most of the fairways on the front . The look at PVGC is much more intimidating and  at NGLA there is  blindness off the tee, which is intimidating in its own way.

[Gene Greco]

Mayday Malone,

Perhaps WFW deserves further consideration and review on your part.

One can't view the tee shot at WFW by ignoring the prefered angle of attack into the greens on the approach shots.
Despite your impression, they are connected.

The tee shots at WFW are challenging, if not demanding.
You have to place your ball in the ideal LZ in order to have the ideal angle of attack into each green.

That's the part you failed to recognize.

I think WFW is one of the most demanding driving golf courses I've played.   Far more demanding than NGLA or PV.

[mike_malone]

 Gene,

  I find your Mucci quote interesting in comparison to your Cirba quote. Do you think this "mad" desire to play until dark exists at WFW ?

[Gene Greco]

I think some courses earn their stars with charm, some with beauty, and still others with the pure challenge presented. Winged Foot clearly falls into this last category although I challenge anyone to argue that their green are not among the most interesting in golf.

The terrain does not allow dramatic visuals, although if you ask me the use of trees and fairways direction (angles) make the driving challenge at Winged Foot as solid as you could ever ask for. To be specific to the front nine, as long as you consider challenge to be a valuable ingredient in greatness, you have to work the ball both directions, you have to make determinations from the tee as to which portion of the fairway will offer the best opportunity on the next shot, and (perhaps most GREAT) is when you miss a drive you are still alive. The player hoping to make par must hit a good drive, but the lesser player should be able to play the whole day with the same ball, and I think that is one very important ingredient of greatness in design.

No question, the greens are the strength of Winged Foot West, but if you don't drive it really damn well....well, just drive it really damn well.

The replies by Mr. Mucci and JES are spot on.

Each course needs to be evaluated on its own merit. Indeed,  Winged Foot West is a stern examination for the skilled player but is truly a fun, enjoyable course and eminently playable for players of all levels. The latter characteristic is one which is lacking at PV.

[Lou_Duran]

Gene,

WF-W is a stern test indeed, and perhaps the quintessential U.S. Open course.  I look forward to the tournament there next year when the rough is thicker than when I played it this summer, the far, far back tees are used, and the greens are firmed-up and made to putt around 12' to 13'.

WF-W is just relentless.  Not only is it demanding of the tee, but the greens and surrounds are very difficult.  I found the bunkers to be nearly impossible in terms of controlling the spin on the ball (and distance).  

There is just not a breather out there.  Even the short holes require very well executed shots to have a chance at par.

With the trees and rough, the recovery shot is nearly non-existant.  Short side yourself on the approach, and double bogey is very much a part of the equation.

I haven't played PV so wouldn't know how much more playable WF-W would be in comparison for the average player.  The member I played with at WF-W and his two other guests indicated that they enjoy playing the East course more, as it provides more opportunities for making a decent score.  The par 3s on the East are also very beautiful and fun to play.

While I hold WF-W in very, very high regard, I enjoyed my round at Bethpage Black more.  I found the Black to be more suited to my eye of the tee, and it gave me some opportunities to recover from my foul balls.  Of course, the greens aren't nearly as demanding, and I didn't find the trees to be so over-grown.  Aesthetically, the Black is also superior in my book, though WF-W is not lacking in this area at all.  

[Gene Greco]

Lou:

    "Relentless" is the word most often uttered by the best players to describe WWF. Good choice.



 

[JESII]

Lou,

When you refer to WFW as being overgrown, I wonder if you mean in the last few years or was your last visit prior to their tree removal program. I have played twice, in 1999 it was quite overgrown, but last week it was amazingly less so. Does anyone have any greater detail about the timing and extent of their tree work?

[mike_malone]

 Jim,

      I thought the trees were a major plus for the course. The openness between them provided airflow, sun light, and playability . Since it was peak season last week the look was wonderful. I did find one tree they could take down. A evergreen right and short of #2 covered up the right greenside bunker .

[JESII]

Mike,

If this was your first trip up there you would not believe the improvement. I am certain someone will provide details of the clearing work, but as it is now I agree with you 100%. The trees really dictate the issue in many cases. Was the huge tree behind the 15th green the same explosive red when you were there as when I was? 15 is the hole where the drive goes over the ridge to a creek at the bottom of the fairway and then back up to a green protected by a huge bunker on the right.

[Lou_Duran]

Jess II,

I was there in July for the first and only time.

Perhaps over-grown was poor usage on my part as opposed to heavily treed.  In my opinion, a course with that length, heavy rough, and well-guarded, difficult greens just doesn't need to be so heavily forested.

Admitedly, I am not a big fan of trees when they have a large impact on options and angles of attack.  Between the trees, rough, relatively narrow fairways and length, I felt like I was on defense on most tees.

For the average Joe, in conjuction with heavy rough, the trees just seem to make an already difficult course all the more punitive.  Playing from the second set of tees, my host and his two other guests didn't come close to breaking 100 on beautiful, calm day.  Yours truly, playing to a five at that time, turned in a score which would have caused the USGA to disallow me from trying to qualify for its future events (more than 13 strokes above the course rating).  

[Patrick_Mucci]

After the 1959 U.S. Open WF made the same mistake most clubs did, they began an extensive tree planting program, never envisioning the invasive and harmful nature of mature trees.

Fortunately, they recognized the errors of green committees past and have begun to correct the situation.

One of the problems many courses face, post the 50's, is the configuration of their irrigation systems.

While trees are/have been cleared and fairways need to be widened, before that can happen irrigation systems need to be reconfigured, which is another project, a political football and a hit to the budget.

The concept of widening fairways is not as simple as many think, and it remains a controversial issue, especially in light of what most club members see on TV every week, "narrowed fairways".  The concept is counter to the current trend in "championship golf" on the PGA Tour.   And, it costs money.

I know of one club that recently installed a new, hi tech irrigation system prior to retaining an architect to implement a long range plan that the club new it was going to embark upon.   Despite protests from a few members, the club proceeded and installed the new irrigation system prior to retaining an architect.
Subsequently, an architect was retained.  He drew up a master plan which called for the altering fairway and gren lines and the relocation of many of the lines and heads.  
The line item in that project's budget for irrigation re-alignment was about $ 300,000.

Hence, the club wasted $ 300,000 which could be spent on other necessary projects because those in charge:

A.   didn't know any better.
B.   didn't understand
C.   Wouldn't take advice from others
D.   Thought they knew everything.
E.   Didn't care about cost.
F.   Didn't care about efficiency.
G.   Couldn't control their egos.
H.   ALL OF THE ABOVE

[Paul Richards]

Mayday

>PLEASE  I must be missing something.


  >>So, I would say Bethpage Black noses this one out.



IMHO, WFW is an AWESOME course.  I don't 'get' what is so great about WFE - I didn't anything there that had it been a 'stand-alone' course would have made me excited (Except that it shares that great clubhouse).

So, IMHO Bethpage Black blows away WFE.

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