Garden City vs. Pebble

[Steve_Roths]

Head to head does Garden City represent a more complete test of golf than Pebble Beach?  I am leaning towards Garden.  I played Pebble not too long ago and I keep thinking to myself why this is in the Top 10 on all the rankings.  

[Philippe Binette]

That's an extreme comparison....

[ForkaB]

So, what's wrong with Pebble, Steve?

I haven't played GCGC, but it beats NGLA by nearly a "dog license" and halves with Shinnecock.  Can't get any higher praise than that, at least from me.

[T_MacWood]

Steve
With all due respect to GCGC, it ain't Pebble Beach. If not the most spectacular course in the world, PBGL is on a very short list of spectacular courses. Are you trying to make the case GCGC is the better of the two golf courses?

[Jim_Coleman]

    It's pretty en vogue to trash Pebble, and there is no doubt that there are a lot of mediocre, nondescript holes.  But the great holes are so great that they more than balance out the weak ones.  Are the 18 holes at GCGC better than the 18 holes at Pebble - maybe.  But does Garden City have one hole to compare with Pebble's 7-10 or 17-18.  Not even close.
    I suspect that you would be hardpressed to find an honest person who would rather play his last round of golf ever at Garden City over Pebble, although you could find many (perhaps a majority here) who would rather play 50 rounds a year at Garden City over Pebble.  So, if I'm right, which is the better course?

[Steve_Roths]

Jim- I think you said it far better than I could.  The 50 rounds versus the last round.  I think day in and day out Garden City would be the course for most on here.  

Here is my thing with Pebble.  I get that it has some great holes, but that is only 6 of the 18.  My point with Garden City is that it is completely solid from start to finish.  

[Gib_Papazian]

Steve,

I think you need to take a closer look at Pebble. I've been fortunate to play it all my life and those who trash the golf course are frankly . . . . . well, aesthetically challenged.

The opener is puke. No doubt. A complete zero. However, there is something architecturally interesting on nearly every hole that follows.

#2. The crossing "pit" bunker is a fine feature.  The trick to appreciating it lies in playing from the correct tees. If you are playing a super-short par-5, of course it is not going to wiggle your giggle!

#3. Excellent risk-reward tee shot (from the correct tees) with a landing area where players skilled enough to work the ball can take advantage of the contours of the fairway to kick the pellet towards the hole. Ever try to hit that green from the upper part of the fairway?  Tough angle. Cut the corner and get your ball onto the lower part of the fairway, and the green opens up beautifully.

#4. If you don't like the fairway bunkering or putting surface hanging on the edge of that precipice, then don't read any further. It is pointless to cast pearls to the . . . . .

#5. Jack did a great job. I would have liked the putting surface to present a little softer angle from the tee - to make it more of a *true* reverse-Redan; still a wonderful job.

#11. I agree this is a bit of a mutt. The green complex is very good. The hole could be drastically improved with some strategic geometry off the tee to challenge players to place their ball at an optimum angle. I might jigger around the bunkering at greensite to make the angles match,

#12. Complete puke. No excuse. A bad hole. I've been told what was there before it was redone years ago. So, I'll agree. Blow up and start over.

#13. This hole does not deserve the bad rap it gets. The new bunkers on the right work well, allthough the rough line is not very good. Like #11, it could use a little jazzing up off the tee, allthough the waste bunker is effective for short hitters (like me).

#15. A good breather hole. Every course needs a spot that is more beautiful than challenging. This is a sexy hole that gets diss'd because it gives up a few birdies.

#16. If you don't see the beauty of this hole, with the putting surface nudged into a shady hollow, then you don't get it. A perfect prelude of the last two. That anticipation-filled walk from the 16th green to the 17th tee is a bit like the walk from #14 to #15 or #15 to #16 at Cypress.

If I were king, the 16th green at Pebble would be expanded a bit. I suspect is has been mowed into a circle over the years. Love the bunkering of the hole both from the tee and approach.

#17. They need to do something about that stupid green. Either expand the back or do some recontouring. I watched Jimenez have to hit a sand wedge from one tier to the other in the Open and frankly, the whole thing is silly. You cannot stop the ball on the left side unless you can hit a sky-ball. So, I am criticizing this hole where everyone else fawns over it.  

Garden City? Except for #12, a joyous stroll. An essay in classic architecture. It would be nice to see the fairway on #7 reexpanded, but you can't have everything. #12 is absolutely unacceptable.

To compare these two courses is frankly, ridiculous.  Apples and Oranges. You may as well compare Olympic Lake and Royal County Down.

Kate Hepburn or Catherine Zeta Jones? Bardot or Kidman?

Pointless.  

[Doug Braunsdorf]

    I suspect that you would be hardpressed to find an honest person who would rather play his last round of golf ever at Garden City over Pebble, although you could find many (perhaps a majority here) who would rather play 50 rounds a year at Garden City over Pebble.  

Jim-

  I'm an honest person, and I would rather play my last round ever at Garden City.  And no, I'm not being a wiseass or contrarian or saying this just for the sake of it.  

[Peter Galea]

it beats NGLA by nearly a "dog license"

Huh?

[ForkaB]

Pete and Aker BillK (I can hear that song in my head but can't remember what it was called......)

In ye olden days in the UK (i.e. pre-Camilla), a dog license cost 7 shillings and 6 pence, or 7/6 in "old money", so if you manged to close out your opponent on the 12th.........

[Kyle Harris]

This is just going to be a homer thread for the most part. Frankly, I think Garden City is more "charming" and probably a bit more playable than Pebble, but Pebble is pretty much necessary for a golf playing resume.

I'd like to buy a fish license, m'self.

And a bee license for my half bee, Eric.

[Jason Mandel]

Doug,
Have you ever played Pebble or Garden City, if so please tell us why you would make that choice.

I have never played Garden City so I can't comment on it.


I for one am also pretty sick of hearing Pebble bashed like it continually does on this site.  

I would probably say that the two best courses I have ever played are Pebble and Merion.  I say with no doubt that I would take Pebble at least 7-3 over Merion.

That is not to say Merion isn't a great course, it is one of the best in the world.  And that is not to say Merion may not have an overall amount of better golf holes.

But you know what, I sure as hell would rather be playing golf 100 feet above the Pacific Ocean than on Ardmore and Haverford Avenues.  

The course is dramatic in every sense of the word and a blast to play.

Jason

[Mike Hendren]

The opener is puke. No doubt. A complete zero. However, there is something architecturally interesting on nearly every hole that follows.

If the roller-coaster's good enough, one can even enjoy the clanking, jerky ascent right out of the gate.  

I agree w/ Gib's assessment, but if nos. 1 and 12 are "puke" - well, gag me with a spoon.

Mike

[George Pazin]

It's quite typical of this site that criticism of Pebble is referred to as "bashing". Even Pebble's toughest critics would probably place it among the top 20 or so courses in the US or the world. They just don't think it's a slam dunk top 5 like most other people do.

If it's fashionable to bash Pebble, then I'd say no one on this site or anywhere else is fashionable.

 

GolfClubAtlas.com is presented to promote the frank commentary on the world's finest golf courses.

So some people don't think Pebble is perfect. Deal with it. Rebut their points, if you feel like it. Stop dismissing is as fashionable bashing. If you think about it, the only real alternative is that we choose to have certain courses as sacred cows above any sort of criticism.

P.S. I hope my last round is on some course built by Tom D's grandson in about 2050 or so.

[Jason Blasberg]

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[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I find this to be about the most ridiculous comparison of all that have shown up on here. The courses could not have less in common other than they are well thought of golf courses within 3 hours of major metro areas in the United States.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Rich Goodale,

Was it "Stranger on the Shore" ?

[Jason Blasberg]

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[Brent Hutto]

Are we only to compare those courses that are similar in topography or appearance?  Sometimes these not so usual thought experiments are helpful in focusing the relative shot making values of completely different courses.

I think the phrase I took the liberty of bolding in the above quote is the heart of the matter. If a course is considered the sum of its shot-making values then it's possible to meaningfully compare any pair of courses that we care to name. True enough that's interesting thought experiment but it isn't actually "Garden City vs. Pebble" as much as it is "The Shots You Play at Garden City vs. The Shots You Play at Pebble", no?

It's a variation on the old "Take away the setting and the history and Pebble Beach isn't all that great" which I've never found to be a useful formulation. I mean take away my wife, my friends, my job and my golf and I don't have much of a life going on but then again I don't live without those things so the statement is just solipsism.

[Jason Blasberg]

. . .

[Brent Hutto]

I don't think the discussion of shot values is solipsistic of itself, rather I was pointing out that if we start moving beyond the thought experiment stage and declaring that the entirety of the courses are being compared we run that danger.

As John pointed out, the experience at a clifftop resort course in California and the experience at an exclusive men's club back east can hardly be compared in toto. But that high, drawing 250-yard 4-wood is a heck of shot requirement on any continent under any conditions.

[Jason Blasberg]

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[Jason Blasberg]

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[Lloyd_Cole]

If this little scrap is ridiculous, the surely it is even more ridiculous to try to take all the great courses and rank them. No? I think it is fair to say that there is probably at least one member here who would rank each of the 'top 25' as his/her favourite. How is Muirfield 'better' than Turnberry? or vice versa? PB vs GCGC isn't such an illuminating debate because they are chalk and cheese and, obviously, folk like me are always going to prefer, GCGC. No big deal, I don't like Merlot either, or Pils (which I know is an aquired taste). My surprised disappointment with Pebble might well have been the event which shoved me into studying (sort of) GC Architecture. Maybe if I had a $30,000 to spare I could spend some time in CA and try to figure out the Merlots and PB.

[Jason Blasberg]

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