East Lake--what did Rees Jones do?

[Paul Carey]

The following is a quote from golfobserver.com about the restoration of East Lake (I am sure this has been discussed before here but I could not find it):

 "Tom Cousins bought it in 1994. He then hired Rees Jones who came in and through photographs by the Atlanta Histrorical Society and the Donald Ross Society restored the course to the time when Donald Ross changed it in 1913. Jones redid all the greens, fairways and bunkers."  

In the article there was a mention of some changes by George Cobb prior to Jones.

Anyway, my question is how closely did Rees Jones stick to the Donald Ross design or did he make significant changes?

[Craig Disher]

Paul,
I think the last sentence in the quote is fairly accurate. The routing is Ross's but his bunkers and greens are long gone. I'd say the changes were very significant.

[BCrosby]

"Anyway, my question is how closely did Rees Jones stick to the Donald Ross design or did he make significant changes?"

EL is now a Rees Jones course in all but name. There are significant differences from the original Ross course. Notwithstanding your quotation above and notwithstanding a lot of publicity to the contrary, there was no serious attempt by any of the parties involved to investigate the course that Ross redid circa 1921 or to restore it. (The original layout was by Bendelow.)

George Cobb made a number of changes to EL in the run-up to the 1963 Ryder Cup.

Bob

[Mike_Young]

I think Bob Crosby is correct in his assessment of EL.  And Bob and myself have discussed this many times regarding the involvement of RJ.  I think he did a good job of giving the owner exactly what he wanted. I just don't have that much of a problem with RJ work.  But the course is several strokes easier than b4 the redo.  As whith many old courses, IMHO, it would have been nice to see te same infrastructure and maintenance level applied to the old design.  But , then that might not have been practical.

[Paul Carey]

Thanks for the replies.  I had a feeling that the changes were significant given some of Rees Jones other "renovations".

[Bill_McBride]

I walked the course on a rainy day in early November 2003 (Tour Championship), and went back to play later that rainy month.  I think they made a big mistake during the renovation by planting all the fairways in zoyzia.  "Soggy" would be the best description.  I think almost any other grass would have been reasonably playable even in the light rain we played in, but the zoyzia was very wet.  The course should drain better given the fairly hilly terrain.

At least Rees kept the big square tees (I guess he kept them from the past, haven't seen any old photos and never saw the course before 2003), and the bunkering was pretty good from my strictly layman's perspective.  Large greens with quite a bit of internal contour and pretty well tied into the surrounding terrain.

The routing is, I assume, Ross' original or maybe Bendelow's.  It's really good except for a little bit of back and forth, uphill and back downhill, parallel holes on the back side.

One thing I liked there was the basket on bananas on the 6th tee.  I looked around for a trash can as we walked around the lake to the green, but the caddy said to just throw the peels into the lake, the carp eat them!  

[Anthony_Nysse]

Bill,
  Zoysia is such an awesome surface to hit off and most big clubs in the Atlanta area have it or are going to it. Given enough water, bermuda is just a bad if not worse. Given the wet spring we had here at Long Cove, our zoysia was in much better shape than our bermuda. It's all in the drainage!! They made the right decision with zuysia, they just may not have had enough drainage.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[A.G._Crockett]

I think Bob Crosby is correct in his assessment of EL.  And Bob and myself have discussed this many times regarding the involvement of RJ.  I think he did a good job of giving the owner exactly what he wanted. I just don't have that much of a problem with RJ work.  But the course is several strokes easier than b4 the redo.  As whith many old courses, IMHO, it would have been nice to see te same infrastructure and maintenance level applied to the old design.  But , then that might not have been practical.

Mike,
I got to play East Lake this summer, so it is fairly fresh in my mind.  When you say that it plays several strokes easier now than before RJ worked on it, what did you have in mind?  I never saw the course before a couple of trips down to the Tour Championship and then playing it this summer, so would love to know the differences.

[Andy Doyle]

...  "Soggy" would be the best description.  I think almost any other grass would have been reasonably playable even in the light rain we played in, but the zoyzia was very wet.  The course should drain better given the fairly hilly terrain.

Cousins spent a bunch of money after that Tour Championship to significantly upgrade the drainage in a lot of the fairways.  At the event last fall there was rain early in the week and the course drained well.

I worked the Pro-Am yesterday & the course is in great shape.  We've had very little rain & it looks as though it's playing pretty firm.

AD

[Bill_McBride]

Glad to hear that, Andy, I need to get up there again.  I loved the layout and general ambience and it's good news that the drainage was improved after Fall 2003.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I played Belle Meade in Nashville after a Rees redo. I am not sure he really did as good a job as the members feel he did on the holes he changed. However I am sure the traps are now out of character with the land and the course. It has a Rees stamp on it now. Baton Rouge Country Club, a wonderful classic course near me may well bring Rees in as well. I am fearful he will do the same to that beautiful course. I am not afraid of his strategic hole modifications and routing changes, just his god awful traps.  

[BCrosby]

Tiger -

Sounds very familiar.

Bob

[Chris Moore]

I played Belle Meade in Nashville after a Rees redo. I am not sure he really did as good a job as the members feel he did on the holes he changed. However I am sure the traps are now out of character with the land and the course. It has a Rees stamp on it now. Baton Rouge Country Club, a wonderful classic course near me may well bring Rees in as well. I am fearful he will do the same to that beautiful course. I am not afraid of his strategic hole modifications and routing changes, just his god awful traps.  

I played Belle Meade numerous times before the re-do and I am very curious about what they did to the course.  I thought there were 10 or so exceptional holes there and wonder what changes they might have made.  Is #15 still tucked into the corner of the property?  Did they remove some of the fronting bunkers to permit a good drive to run up on the green?  Is #4 still the diabolical little par 4 that it used to be?  How about #5?  Did Rees add bunkers to this hole, which used to have no bunkers?

[Derek_Duncan]

I can ratify what Mike and Bob have said regarding EL--it appears every effort was made to make it a PGA-worthy stop rather than a Donald Ross renovation. Rees added a number of his own bunkers that don't appear in old aerials, including the two fronting the eighth and twelfth greens. He also swung the 17th hole out closer to the lake, where it used to bend up toward the 12th and 14th greens.

I can't say if anyone really knows what Ross's original green complexes and contours were like--the club isn't certain either--but I doubt they were of the subtle, "ready for 12 on the stimp" variety that EL now has.

That said, depending on who you talk to the renovation made the course much better and much more enjoyable. My guess is that many who played there regularly from the 1970's up to the renovation absolutley love it. EL remains a wonderful place to play because it is so well maintained and the site and historical significance cannot be ignored. There is definitely an aura about it.

[Mike_Young]

Mike,
I got to play East Lake this summer, so it is fairly fresh in my mind.  When you say that it plays several strokes easier now than before RJ worked on it, what did you have in mind?  I never saw the course before a couple of trips down to the Tour Championship and then playing it this summer, so would love to know the differences.

AG,
In general the penalty for going over the greens is much less severe than it used to be.  and I am sure this is because they needed to design green surfaces that would allow a 12 stimp reading.  I think # 6 was much more difficult before the redo. #2 green was much more difficult.
Mike

[A.G._Crockett]

Mike,
I got to play East Lake this summer, so it is fairly fresh in my mind.  When you say that it plays several strokes easier now than before RJ worked on it, what did you have in mind?  I never saw the course before a couple of trips down to the Tour Championship and then playing it this summer, so would love to know the differences.

AG,
In general the penalty for going over the greens is much less severe than it used to be.  and I am sure this is because they needed to design green surfaces that would allow a 12 stimp reading.  I think # 6 was much more difficult before the redo. #2 green was much more difficult.
Mike

Mike,
Thanks, and this makes sense to me.  I really liked the course, but it did not seem exceedingly difficult around the greens.  I thought the breaks on the greens were very subtle (I had a very good caddy who did a great job of reading stuff I never would have seen), but on the whole there wasn't much disaster looming once you got to the green.
In any case, still a wonderful routing though, don't you think?

Also, even if the course just sucked (which it doesn't) the day would be made by the clubhouse and the memorabilia and atmosphere of the place.  No carts and no cellphones alone make it a 4-star place.

[michael_j_fay]

East Lake was redone by Rees Jones for Tom Cousins back in 1994. The essential target was to recreate the Ross course that had been redone by George Cobb in 1962. The purpose was to recover the course on which Bobby Jones played as a youth.

There were significant problems. There were no original plans for the course and Cobb had actually changed the routing slightly.

The result is a very fine ersatz Ross course with many features that mimic other work by Rees Jones. Rees made a good faith effort to recover some Ross and he succeeded.

I agree with Mike Young that the penalty for exceeding the green was taken away, but that is something that has happened in many renovations.

All in all, East Lake is a very pleasant golf course and one of the best "golf experiences" that can be found.

[Carlyle Rood]

I played East Lake around 1986 in the Southeastern Junior Amateur.  I've also played it a number of times after the renovation.

I would have to concur that it's at least two or three shots easier now--if only because of the absence of gunshots and screaming ambulances.  We spent 3 days playing that tournament in 1986, or one day for each fatality in the surrounding neighborhood over that same span.  It was quite literally the most dangerous community in the United States.

Now it's becoming one of the most pleasant communities in America.  The improved course conditions are nice; but, the neighborhood restoration has to be one of the most remarkable projects ever accomplished.

[BCrosby]

Carlyle -

You are right about the changes to the East Lake community. They have been remarkable. There will be more good things to come.

Bob

[Derek_Duncan]

Michael Fay,

What do you know about the Cobb changes, particularly in regard to the routing? I know the most significant work was probably done to the sixth hole, but aerials from the '63 Ryder Cup show a course that is routed almost exactly as it is was in the 1930's or 1940's (if the dates on the photographs I'm looking at are accurate). If anything it looks like Rees Jones altered the routing slightly.

[BCrosby]

Derek -

I would be curious what you find out about the Cobb changes. No one at EL seems to know much. Contemporary newpaper accounts said he added a number of bunkers, but not much more detail than that.

The basic routing of EL hasn't changed since Ross completely redid the Bendelow routing. (To give a flavor of how different the Ross course is, Bendelow put the first tee just ouside the grill room to the left of the clubhouse. You played uphill to a green that was where the 10th tee is now. Which explains the existence of the old porch outside the grillroom in the basement pre-Cousins. There must have been a Merionesque atmosphere at the first tee. All of which is now nle.)

What is different is:

- Ross's 4th was a par 5, with the green back closer to the current 5th tee.
- the tee box for the 5th was ahead of the current tee
- Ross's 8th was a 210 par 3, up the hill to a green slightly behind the current green
- I'm unclear as to Ross's 10th. In the late '70's till the Rees redo it was a wonderful par 4 with the green up against the o.b. fence on the left. A bear of a par 4. (My gut tells me that it was a Cobb redo, but I don't know. Rees completely rerouted it to the right and it now plays as a par 5 for the members.)

There were other differences on the back nine but I don't recall the specifics. I have an old scorecard from the 30's at home. It's a copy of one of O.B. Keeler's. I'll try to find it.

Virtually every hole had a winter and a summer green until sometime in the 50's. They jump off the aerials.

(I'll tell you a secret if you promise to keep it to yourself. Ross's no.2 course across the road (nle, circa '75) was better than the surviving course. Almost all the oldtimers will confirm it. From the aerials, I believe them.)

Bob

[Andy Doyle]

I don't know much about how clubs keep their records, but is it surprising that a club with East Lake's pedigree has so little documentation about what happened to its course over time?

Did they lose records in the clubhouse fires they had?

Did records go with the Atlanta Athletic Club when they moved to the suburbs?

Did they lose records during the neglect years of the 70's and 80's?

I admit to being fascinated with the course.  I live about 5 miles from there, but have been a big Bobby Jones fan for years.  I moved to Atlanta in 1993, just as Tom Cousins acquired East Lake and began the big course and community rennovation.  I distinctly remember reading an article in the AJC about one of the last members to join East Lake before the Cousins purchase - he joined for something like $2,000 (my understanding is that Cousins made a very reasonable offer to the individual members to retain their membership).  This remains one of my all-time "hindsight is 20-20" regrets.

I play most of my golf at Charlie Yates - the public executive course on the site of the old #2 course.  I volunteer at the Tour Championship purely to get the opportunity to walk the grounds & spend a little time in the clubhouse looking at the memorabilia.

AD

[Derek_Duncan]

Bob,

I doubt if I'll find out any more than you already know about the Cobb changes. Cobb worked on the course in 1959 and 1960, and in addition to serious modifications on #6 he lengthened holes (new yardage: 6942), rebuilt greens and re-seeded them with bent, and enlarged and added (30) bunkers.

I have a scorecard from 1961 (post-Cobb) with the following notables:
#4--505 yard par 5 (with the green near where the back tee on #5 currently is, as you mentioned)
#5--473 yard par 4
#8--394 yard par 4
#10--411 yard par 4 (don't know where the green was located)
#14--442 yard par 4 (photos from the 1920's and from the 1963 Ryder Cup show a much stronger dogleg left than today)
#16--511 yard par 4

It's possible that Cobb extended #8 into a par 4. It appears he left #4 as a par 5 and #5 as a par 4, and Jones changed them to par 4 and 5 respectively. It's also possible that EL made these changes in-house between 1960 and 1993. We do know that Jones swung the 17th green down toward the lake (it was formerly located near the 12th green) and made the changes to 10. He might also have changed the par on 16 as well. Is 16 a par 5 on your 1930's scorecard?

Re: No. 2---I've heard the same about No. 2. I have in front of me the routing plan of it from 1928. Looks to be a wonderful, creative routing for a difficult property (which looks to have the same boundaries as the Charlie Yates property today). It's fascinating to try to superimpose it on the Yates course and apartments that currently reside on that site. Thanks for your comments.

[BCrosby]

Derek -

I started playing EL in the late 70's and the holes played as you outlined till Rees's redo in '94.

8 was/is an awkward hole. I suspect that Cobb made it a par 4 on the rationale that as a par 4 you don't need three par 5's to get to a par of 36 on the front. But that's a guess.

There is an odd tee on the 16th, back by the 15th green. I had always heard that they used that tee from time to time and played it as a slight dogleg right par 5. It would have pushed the length to 525+.

I think the old 30's aerials show that the 17th green was originally down by the lake. I suspect Cobb moved it up on the knob for drainage reasons. Again, a guess.

The terrain for the no. 2 course would have been spectacular. Much better than the current course. Much more contour, better water features, etc.

Consider this theory. Ross designed no. 2 in '28 knowing that it was something of an audition for the commission to build Bobby Jones' new course a couple of years later. Ross lost out to MacK on the "new course", but I suspect it was on his  mind at the time of the work on no. 2. Which is another reason to think no. 2 got Ross's undivided attention and was possibly one of the best courses he ever did.

Bob



 

[michael_j_fay]

Derek:

The changes are nearly imperceptible. Two of the holes on the front flipflopped par and one of the greens was replaced. Jones changed the holes to recreate the original par flow and if I am not mistaken replaced the green that was replaced.