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Tommy_Naccarato

Rumor has it.....
« on: October 31, 2005, 07:31:29 PM »
18" of rain didn't damper the spirits from playing golf at Sebonack. Supposedly the course is playing rather nicely.

Anybody else have any stories out there?

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 07:54:51 PM »
Who the hell played Sebonack?  They were only letting the founding members play once each this fall, with no guests!  [Although I did hear that a couple of the best local pros have gone around with Michael, and the best anyone has done from the back tees is 76.]

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 07:55:47 PM »
And whatever you do, don't post any pictures of it until GOLF DIGEST is out next week, or you'll never be allowed there as MY guest.
« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 07:56:18 PM by Tom_Doak »

Peter Galea

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 08:03:52 PM »
So Tom, If I promise not to post any photos of Sebonack, (which by the way I don't have) I can get on your guest list? Spring would be nice. LOL
"chief sherpa"

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 08:07:03 PM »
It doesn't open until Memorial Day weekend.  I am hoping to set aside a couple of weeks to camp out there and have some guests, but that's only if we are not too busy with new work this summer.  I sure have a lot of property to look at in the next few months.

wsmorrison

Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2005, 08:10:00 PM »
Tom,

My camera is in cold storage until the GD article comes out  ;)

Can you address to us what it is like for you to see a course born to the world so to speak?  What sort of feelings do you have, anxious, nervous, scared, or whatever?  Does time change the way you deal with these sort of events?  

Surely few courses in our generation have as much mystery surrounding the development and the soon to be fanfare.  I am curious what the personal perspective, should you care to share it, is like for an artist to make himself available like this.  It is an interesting pyschological position to be in.  

I guess it takes a certain thick skin to be able to handle the opening day excitement time after time.  Like a movie or broadway director seeing his project on opening night--there must be a whole range of emotions associated.

What were some of the more interesting events surrounding an opening of one of your courses?

How many strokes is Jack giving you on the inaugural round?

Ian Andrew

Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2005, 08:12:35 PM »
I was out there the previous week-end (during the 15" of rain). I really enjoyed seeing the course and a few friends too.

10 highlights (for me):


1. The first green has some of the best contouring I have seen, great green

2. The openness between holes 18, 2, 3 and 10 create wonderful vistas of the ocean, and these are all excellent holes.

3. The greensite on the 2nd, the unusual technique at the false front and the hard proximity to the dune for the surface all cvreate a reallt

4. The chipping/fairway areas include the tees, which was supercool

5. The ninth is an outstanding par five slowly climbing up back to the clubhouse site.

6. The bunkers have a wonderful random style, and I'm curious to see the edges kept short rather than tarditional long with Tom's work

7. The 11th is certainly one of the great vistas and holes.

8. The 13th tee site looks like a green when you approach, very unusual.

9. The 16th green was another favourite contour.

10. Nothing beats standing on the 18th tee and looking down the 600 yards of coastline and a spectacular golf hole too.


Tom,

I'm sure I can make some time to help you look at property.  ;D
« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 08:13:53 PM by Ian Andrew »

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2005, 08:17:40 PM »
Ian:  That's a great description of the second green, it's so severe that you start drooling and can't finish a coherent thought!

Carlyle Rood

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2005, 08:21:08 PM »
I know Tom has discouraged us from posting any photos; but, I just can't help scooping Golf Digest.

The following is a photo of the 7th tee at Sebonack.  It is startling in its modesty and adherance to tradition.


(c) 2005 C. Carlyle Rood, All Rights Reserved.

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2005, 08:26:23 PM »
Forgot a smiley, Ian, just kidding, but I'm sure more than one person will be stumped at how to react there.

Wayne M:  The "anticipation" is not quite what you'd think.  After a year and a half of creative work, the thrill is sort of over at this point.  (When we finished the last hole at Pacific Dunes there was actually a palpable letdown to be done with the work, because we'd had so much fun.)  It's a long wait to actually play the course, with a mixture of frustration (because grow-in happens slowly) and anticipation, but of course I've played it now in rough form, so by the time it opens it's very old news to me and I'll be more excited about what we are building in Montana ... in fact I already am.  I think that's the nature of the business, but I'm curious if other designers will share their own perspective.

So, a lot of opening days for me have been letdowns.  Pacific Dunes was an exception, as you'd expect ... I spent an hour on the tee with Mike Keiser greeting people, but then I begged off to wander the course and watch people play it, and then Jim Urbina and I played late in the afternoon.  Of course, we'd played it a bunch of times by then.

I haven't been nervous hitting an opening tee shot since High Pointe, but if I really play with Nicklaus on the opening day, that will be kind of nerve-wracking for me, but I guarantee I'll be up for it.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2005, 08:28:31 PM »
thanks for sharing those thoughts Tom ..great stuff!!!
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Ian Andrew

Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2005, 08:36:46 PM »
Tom,

I was about to fix it, but after reading your post, I think the comment is correct. It is my favourite green site and I was drooling at the time. NUff said.....mmmdftrrr  ;D
« Last Edit: October 31, 2005, 08:38:53 PM by Ian Andrew »

Robert Thompson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 08:36:51 PM »
Tom: No reason to think you are being anything less than genuine with your comments, but isn't Sebonack your highest profile opening by far? Though the opening itself probably isn't inducing any nervous reaction (though I think Jack can still play a bit -- how many strokes is he giving you?), I assume you're at least a bit interested in what the critical and player/member reaction will be to it.
Terrorizing Toronto Since 1997

Read me at Canadiangolfer.com

TEPaul

Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2005, 09:17:02 PM »
What I would just love to see at Sebonak is firm and fast condtions "through the green" (and by that I'm talking a 5 foot bounce in the air and the ball running at least fifty yards), green surface firmness where a really well struck wedge will only lightly dent the surface and the greenspeed a true 10 feet on the stimp.

I don't think I've ever just looked at a golf course with this much anticipation to know how it might play to a good golfer under the aforesaid conditions. Looking at it knowing it had those conditions would scare the life out of me but I felt that way just looking at a course once before and when I played it I had one of the greatest revelations of my golfing life.

I hope they keep Sebonack in that kind of maintenance mode. I have no idea how the membership would like it or handle it that way but it just might be one of the more interesting golfing experiences one could find that way.

Tee to green it would be OK but approaching, putting and recovering on some of those green in that maintenance mode just might be a real eye opener.

What do you think if they generally set it up and kept it that way TomD?

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2005, 09:19:48 PM »
Jack was playing decently at St Andrews in the Open, but I'm taking Tom and the points!

TEPaul

Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #15 on: October 31, 2005, 09:42:57 PM »
I'd like to see a Doak/Nicklaus match around the opening of Sebonack. I predict Tom Doak will of course be the tortoise to Nicklaus, the hare, but by about the 12th hole Doak will have chipped and putted Nicklaus's brains out, and Jack, at that point, will begin to lose it wondering why he can't get rid of this little gnat Doak and Jack will uncharacteristically freak out and lose the match 3 and 2!  ;)


Voytek Wilczak

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #16 on: October 31, 2005, 10:15:45 PM »
And whatever you do, don't post any pictures of it until GOLF DIGEST is out next week, or you'll never be allowed there as MY guest.

Forget about playing it, I'd love just to walk it...:D


RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #17 on: October 31, 2005, 10:54:53 PM »
Tom D., I am assuming you followed the thread about the hearty turf conditions cultivated by Scott Anderson and what he describes in his feature interview on this site.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=20229

I think that it is quite assumable that you as an architect would wish to encourage the firm and fast, lean and mean turf approach to such a design as Sebonak. ( say so if I'm wrong on that)

If that is the sort of conditions you'd like to see as an ideal maintenance meld, have you discussed the ideas with the Sebonak grow-in staff?  And, if those sort of turf conditioning to evolve to the lean and mean is desirable, does that mean that the grow-in should be expected to take a couple of years to toughen the turf stand, and that folks shouldn't get their panties in a wad if the turf doesn't approach the ideal for a few years?
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #18 on: October 31, 2005, 11:08:54 PM »
Doak better have a good caddie for opening day - Jack's already got the best around signed up.

Brian_Ewen

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #19 on: October 31, 2005, 11:43:25 PM »
Well I hope Tom has gotten some practise in since I last saw him , playing at Carnoustie .

I am still finding bits of whin bushes attached to me , from looking for a souvenir .  ;)

Brian
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 12:00:52 AM by Brian_Ewen »

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2005, 08:28:22 AM »
Some older construction/design pics and a video can be found at http://www.nicklaus.com/design/sebonack/

I love Tom's courses, and Mr. Nicklaus' Glen Abbey in Toronto was the first really good course I've ever played, so the collaboration is probably right up my alley.  

Sounds like a great addition to golf course architecture  :)

When I was Googling for info, I saw an article on 'Organic Golf' techniques used at Sebonack.  Any more info on this?
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 08:32:09 AM by Dan Herrmann »

TEPaul

Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2005, 08:53:06 AM »
RJ:

When we walked around Sebonak about a month ago with Doak one of the group was Scott Anderson. As far as Sebonak playing firm and fast in the future that would depend if Scott sprinkled some of his volcanic dust on the course. I believe I noticed that he may have done but I'm not positive. ;)

Jeff_Mingay

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2005, 09:07:41 AM »
Wow! Nicklaus/Klein are going to be tough to beat  :D
jeffmingay.com

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2005, 09:10:36 AM »

When I was Googling for info, I saw an article on 'Organic Golf' techniques used at Sebonack.  Any more info on this?

It is my understanding that their restrictions were not as severe as The Vineyard Club. I was told some of the differences, but don't remember well enough to do it justice. Here is background on "Organic" at TVC. http://www.vineyardgolf.com/default.aspx?p=v35ListDocument&nw=1&listname=Club%

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Rumor has it.....
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2005, 09:23:19 AM »
Wow Tom, I can't tell you how much I would have loved to be on THAT walkaround! ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.