News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« on: October 31, 2005, 12:32:25 PM »
So far as I am aware no list is published of the best modern courses in the UK/Ireland, as done in the US.

What would such a list include if you went back, say, 15 years?

Kingsbarns and Loch Lomond would seem to be uncontroversial selections. David Kidd's Queenwood is not rated but would surely also belong on the list. I suppose Doonbeg would also belong, though I am not sure it is as good as those others.

What else ?

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #1 on: October 31, 2005, 01:30:28 PM »
Skibo Castle? Dundonald? European Club?

Ryan Crago

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #2 on: October 31, 2005, 01:30:51 PM »
rumor has it that The Grove (Kyle Phillips) lives up to the hype.

Gene Greco

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #3 on: October 31, 2005, 01:40:32 PM »
When was the front side of Portstewart redone?
"...I don't believe it is impossible to build a modern course as good as Pine Valley.  To me, Sand Hills is just as good as Pine Valley..."    TOM DOAK  November 6th, 2010

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #4 on: October 31, 2005, 01:56:27 PM »
David - I agree re The European (which probably only just makes it post-1990. Is Dundonald Loch Lomond's sister (links) course? I have not heard or read much about it.

I have seen pictures of The Grove but not heard much. The very corporate nature of the complex does not make one well disposed, but I suppose one should make a distinction between the course and the club.

Don't know re PortStewart  - I don't think it has changed since I played there which was probably 95.

Bill Gayne

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #5 on: October 31, 2005, 02:06:37 PM »
Carne and Old Head for Seaside courses in Ireland. With how difficult it is to permit links courses in the EU there might not be many added in the near future.

Eamon Lynch

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2005, 03:56:23 PM »
There's also the Montgomerie Course at Carton House near Dublin. We'll have to wait to see Ernie Els' course at Hangman's Point in Ireland in a couple of years.

Brad Klein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #7 on: October 31, 2005, 04:14:21 PM »
re: Old Head, don't confuse an absolutely spectacular site with the rather mundane majority of holes.

Brad Tufts

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #8 on: October 31, 2005, 04:21:11 PM »
Kingsbarns.....was the Carnegie Club at Skibo post-1990?...The redone second course at Turnberry (Kintyre)?...new course at Rosapenna?...just throwing them out there...haven't been over to play any of these....
So I jump ship in Hong Kong....

Ian Andrew

Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #9 on: October 31, 2005, 06:40:14 PM »
I enjoyed the European Club a lot. For the few weaknesses like the 18th or some of unessasary narrowness, there are so many really great holes to enjoy. The 3rd, 7a, 8th, 11th, 12th, 12a, 13th, 14th, 15th, 16th and 17th are all very well done.

I also enjoyed Carton House's Montgomerie course. It is one of the few "shaped" courses that still holds together very well. The bunkering in particular was very well done.

I certainly would like to see Kingsbarns in particular, but I enjoyed those two above.


Lloyd_Cole

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #10 on: October 31, 2005, 07:43:11 PM »
What? No mention of The Oxfordshire??

Pete Lavallee

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #11 on: October 31, 2005, 07:50:43 PM »
I thought Chart Hills was also highly reguarded?
"...one inoculated with the virus must swing a golf-club or perish."  Robert Hunter

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #12 on: October 31, 2005, 11:59:03 PM »
Headfort Golf Club (New) in Meath
The new Smurfit Course at the K Club
Carton House
Palmerstown House
Esker Hills
Old Head
Powerscourt
Gowran Park
Rathsallagh
Luttrelstown Castle
Doonbeg
Carne
Ballyliffin
Heratage

I don't know how these all rate, but the represent the newest significant developments in Ireland over the last number of years (off the top of my head). There are a few more large-scale developments on the way too - One beside Old Head, one in Leitrim, maybe two in Kerry? (Tom Doak, C&C), and a few more that I've surely forgotten.

John Marr(inan)

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #13 on: November 01, 2005, 01:56:26 AM »
I'm sure Mark Rowlinson created a top fifty list a year or so back. Must be in the archives somewhere but I've no idea how to find it.

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #14 on: November 01, 2005, 01:59:46 AM »
« Last Edit: November 01, 2005, 02:00:50 AM by Marc Haring »

James Edwards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #15 on: November 01, 2005, 04:01:28 AM »
Well done Marc,

Yes, I was just about to spit my dummy out when I couldnt see Chart Hills, but I wasnt looking high enough!  #6 is a fair reflection of my home course although it did win best new course in Europe a couple of years on the spin however thats possible.
@EDI__ADI

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #16 on: November 01, 2005, 04:29:48 AM »
Yes, well done on recovering the list Marc!

Three things strike me about Mark's list:

1 - he has gone back to 1959. If you take the shorter period I suggested of the last 15 years, then the list of possible contenders is much shorter.
2 - how many of the top Irish courses are relatively young.
3 - how few of these courses I really want to play.

When I look at the many newer US courses discussed on this site, many of them look wonderful. But when I try to think of equivalents here, I struggle.

If you look at Mark's list you get names like The Belfry, Forest of Arden, Hanbury Manor, Slaley Hall, Celtic Manor, K-Club, Mount Juliet, Druid's Glen etc - almost all of these have hosted tournaments, and yet somehow none of them set the pulse racing.

Put it this way: If I was going to the US and could play any 20 courses I wanted, there would be a good number that had been built in the last ten years or so. But if a US visitor was coming the other way, that number would surely be very small?

Mark has explained elsewhere why so few decent courses were built after WW1, but why have so few decent courses been built in the last 15 years or so? Or have they been, and I am just prejudiced by the weight of tradition?

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #17 on: November 01, 2005, 05:12:57 AM »
BTW James - did you get to the bit in Mark's post last year where he said the courses were not in order of preference, just in the order they came into his head? :)

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #18 on: November 01, 2005, 06:17:27 AM »
Philip, my list was actually since 1945, which allowed me to include Turnberry Ailsa, Southerness and Prince's.  It was more of a shooting gallery than anything.

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #19 on: November 01, 2005, 06:36:47 AM »
Mark - what about my closing paragaraph? Have I been too harsh re the modern courses? Not many of them feel worth travelling for....

Mark_Rowlinson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #20 on: November 01, 2005, 06:56:36 AM »
Philip,

I think the thing is that we are 25 years behind the Americans.  Just as when someone introduces a new management technique in the States we get it here about three years later, so it is with golf courses and their design.  

Television has something to do with it in that we now see lots of tour golf from the States and developers here say, 'I want my course to be like that,' believing that if they play a tour event on it and get the likes of Tiger, Vijay and Mickelson in the field, then it must be a good course.  

Another factor has been the development of golf in Spain and Portugal.  Those Brits who go abroad to play golf there in the winter months rave about courses built by the Trent Jones family, Roquemore, Cabell Robinson, Joe Lee and I suspect that those Brits who have landed design jobs there - Donald Steel, Martin Hawtree, Dave Thomas, for instance - have been required to follow in their footsteps to some extent.  True, it was Henry Cotton who opened up the Algarve to golf with Penina, but it is hardly a classical course!  Now British golfers are travelling to Florida and the Carolinas for winter golf and they are mostly going to be playing resort or public access courses - not many will find their way onto Seminole or Pinehurst #2.  These people want the same kind of course in Britain which is why we have the Oxfordshire, Hanbury Manor, Carden Park, The London, East Sussex National and, dare I say it, The Belfry.  It is also why I have been at pains in my books to include such courses - many people want to play that kind of course.

Which reminds me, the Seve Trophy was played at The Wynyard this year.  I don't know it, although I drive past its gates from time to time on my way to and from Hartlepool.  What's it like?

Philip Gawith

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #21 on: November 01, 2005, 07:19:32 AM »
Mark - that theory re people importing their ideals from what they see in Florida etc and in southern Europe, plus on TV, rings true. For what it is worth, I would say the same applies to GCA literacy in South Africa - if you say that Gary Player or Jack Nicklaus has designed it, everybody is happy.

My point is well made in Mike Benham's thread about courses where the Kings Putter has been played - Cuscowilla, Tobacco Road, Rustic Canyon (and there are many others).

I haven't played any of them, but all have created huge buzz in the way that no UK/Irish course that I can recall has done.

Ian Dalzell

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #22 on: November 01, 2005, 08:02:05 AM »
Portstewarts new holes (2 thru 8) were completed around 1992-1993 if memory serves me correctly.  Spectacular land and a pretty darn good design considering it was done by a 4-handicap school teacher who was a member!

Jack_Marr

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2005, 08:12:30 AM »
Headfort New is better than any other parkland course built in Ireland over the last 20 years. Bloody hard, though.
John Marr(inan)

David_Tepper

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Best modern courses in UK/Ireland
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2005, 09:01:18 AM »
Mark Rowlinson -

I was in Dornoch while the Seve Trophy was being played in September. A column in one of the British papers described the Wynyard course as being "a field with a fancy haircut." That pretty much tells you everything you need to know!

DT