Where are punch bowl greens "appropriate?"

[Jeff_Brauer]

In another thread, I spoke of moving the Biaritz green around to short fours and long fives, rather than on par 3 holes, to see if it fit the modern game better.

Now I have a situation on a new design where I am considering using 2/3 a mini punch bowl (the ceral bowl?" green on a par 5, not too unlike August 13, but longer.

So, the question is, does providing the relative safety of the backboard kick in slopes, which increases the size of the green target effectively, make that hole too easy?  Or is it making it more tempting and fun?

Where is, conceptually, the best type of hole for a punchbowl green?  

[Kyle Harris]

Jeff,

Depending on the length of your Par 5, the punchbowl could actually make going for two much more difficult. Since longer shots tend to fly further offline when struck. Being outside the punchbowl, especially when shortsided, makes for a VERY difficult up and down.

The best punchbowl I've played is the 8th at Lulu, in this case it's a short, downhil par 4. Tommy Nac's favorite hole, too, if I recall correctly.

The sides of the punchbowl there are much more severe (I think? Never seen Augusta in person) than that of the 13th at Augusta.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

The 1st hole on the 4th nine at Montclair is a punchbowl, two tiered green with unique surrounds.  The hole is now a readily reachable par 5 and was probably, always a reachable par 5.

I found the green to be a fabulous challenge, especially when the pin was on the upper tier or front right.

The one problem that seemed to plague the green was water retention in the winter.  The green was at the low point of the hole and collected water, which froze.

I like BIG punchbowl greens because I feel that hole locations can be varied to present different defenses.

The 3rd at Westhampton is an interesting, semi-blind par 3, however, I think the green could have been created with more interesting contours.   Especially since other greens on the golf course have some very interesting and PRONOUNCED contours.

If you would ask me where I felt a punchbowl green would be desireable, I'd say, in an environment where approaches missing the green payed a dire price.  This might be a function of the topograhical slot machine.  But, it would seem the ideal place for a punchbowl green.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kyle,

My wording was a bit bad. Augusta 13 doesn't have a punchbowl, at least not any more.   When I referred to the hole layout, I meant that it was a dogleg left around a creek, with a potential to clear it in two shots.

Interesting point, in that it could well tempt and torture you.  On one hand, I can see the idea of using the PB on a longer approach shot, to increase target size w/o increasing green size.  Putting it on a short 4, or long 5 where you expect a short approach seems like too much of a giveaway, unless you say you want one easy shot to break up hard ones, or if you can make the green tricky enough to not be too easy.

I guess my question is, how do they work on a long shot to reach a par 5- again, knowing that if you lay up, you should really have an easy wedge, although, using the punch bowl doesn't guarantee you will get close to the hole.

[Kyle Harris]

Jeff,

It wasn't such an easy wedge for me at Lulu, I hit a dead pull.  

Then it depends on the super... a hole cut on the edges of the green bring one of the sides into play more... allowing a nasty short side potential. I am with Pat abour the larger green though, with some roll in them it makes for a lot of different "target areas" that can be hampered by the punchbowl feature.

I was wondering what you were thinking about 13 at Augusta... I figured you meant the back and left sides with the bunkers.

[Jim_Kennedy]

Jeff,
They work well on the blind approach, ala Fishers Island.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Jim,

Yeah, I agree they work great on a blind hole....

Kyle,

As an Illini, I suppose I will have to cease communicating with you from sunrise to sunset tomorrow......when I will have to come back on to humbly accept my fate.....my first post was almost as if I had already taken a helmet blow, or been in a hockey fight!

[paul cowley]

I can't think of a hole type where a good punch bowl green would not be appropriate [that being said I'm sure someone will come up with one]......I love it when pins are around the upslope, as nearside misses outside the green extract the most penalty, unless one chooses to bail 'in' to the safety of the middle....on well designed PB's all putts are breaking, except when one is immediately below the hole.
...we are working on one now that has high upslopes with  the green going up about two thirds of these, where misses of only three yards or so on the high side of the pin can leave a ball twenty or more yards to the other side of the hole....and as you will be playing down to and have a good view into most of the green, it will be great fun to see the ball work across the surface.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Paul,

Thougtful response I was looking for. Thanks.

And before anyone says it, I suspect putting one on the top of a peak would be bad, since it wouldn't fit the natural contours.....unless it was a volcano......

[Kyle Harris]

Jeff,

You're going to have all basketball season to get back at me.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

Kyle,

Not sure. Didn't we graduate a lot of key guys?

Well, the term graduate might be a bit strong.......

[Kyle Harris]

Jeff,

More an indictment of Penn State's basketball program than Illinois's talent.

Apart from the Sweet 16 in 2001... we've been rebuilding since 1957.

[Jeff_Brauer]

So you're saying that PSU is the Augusta National of College Basketball?

[Kyle Harris]

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA...

Yes.

[Jeff_Brauer]

I feel compelled to point out that if golf courses have as much pesticide drift as there is topic drift here, then maybe we do have an environmental problem......

Is all the BS we post here given any credit for taking it out of the real world to the environmentally safer cyberworld?

[Peter Galea]

Pesticide drift? You've got to be kidding!
Compass fungicide sells for $400 a pound, Primo, a plant growth regulator is $450 a gallon. It is fiscally, besides environmentally irresposnsible to allow pesticides off target.
There are many ways to eliminate pesticide drift. Nozzle selection, using proper pressures to control droplet size,  applying during correct weather conditions, using adjuvants, and spraying with a hooded boom.

Back on topic, I like the uphill shot to a punchbowl, a'la 16 at NGLA.
Anticipation builds as you climb the hill.

[TEPaul]

JeffB;

While this recommendation may not be that feasible in many places for obvious reasons I think the most appropriate place and use of a punchbowl green is when the use of the punchbowl creates a form of conceptual unity with most of the rest of the hole.

The best example of this, in my opinion, and what I mean by conceptual unity with most of the rest of the hole is NGLA's #16 (Punchbowl).

The fact is the punchbowl green on NGLA's #16 is totally blind to any approach shot from anywhere on the fairway. But two large sections of the fairway (two large fairway bowls) are totally blind even if the green was not a blind punchbowl from fairway area not in those two bowls.

This combined concept (whole hole concept) of totally blind fairway bowls and blind punchbowl green (that massively collects approach shots hit short, long or to either side of the geen) is one of the most brilliant architectural "balanced" concepts I've ever seen anywhere. That Macdonald used such a collecting blind green in a punchbowl effect with those two totally blind fairway bowls is just brilliant.

So I would say if you used a punchbowl green and particularly a relatively blind one it would be even better if some of the approach area perhaps were somewhat blind in and of themselves in some way too. That way the collecting effect of the punchbowl green just becomes a terrific "give-back" or "balance" if you will to the fact that some of the approach area is blind in and of itself.

But how often are you going to run across a landform like NGLA's #16? Not often, but stick it in your mental inventory anyway.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul & Jeff,

The punchbowl green compensates for the blind approach on # 16 at NGLA, and this is where their use fits nicely.

The approach is a shot in the dark, but the green and surrounds acts as a self correcting, compensating factor.

It's a neat combination.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Jeff B.,

What type of soil(s) are you dealing with in this particular situation? 'Cause, when I think of punchbowl greens, draining the putting surface immediately comes to mind (of course!).  

Will you be taking the water away by subsurface pipe? Or, is it sandy soil that will drain freely? Or both?

I recently came across a relatively new, punchbowl-type green built over less than ideal soil that had some severe drainage problems (even with what was perceived to be adequate subsurface drainage). I wonder if, over time, any kind of subsurface pipe is sufficient in heavier soils, to drain a punchbowl?

I actually doubt it.

[TEPaul]

Patrick:

Post #17 is another clear example of why I will always be your teacher and you will always be my student in architecture. You tend to repeat precisely what I said just after I finished saying it as if you just thought it up. I call that the ideal effect of a great teacher.  

The process appears to be one of osmosis.

[paul cowley]

....a simplistic conceptual of how I prefer to drain a non-naturally occurring punchbowl [one I build from scratch], would be as follows;

1] Take a flat site and then fill and raise all the edges up in a circular form or with maybe a hint of squarish if you prefer.
Leave the front edges lower than the back, like a bowl that tilts forward.
If the site allows for excavation to achieve the same result, then by all means do and then proceed to...

2] Imagine the green as the face of a clock with the centerline running thru the six and terminating in the center.
Now imagine a slice or section of the green that includes approximately the area between the 8 and 6:30, joining in the center......this represents the break or high point with a diminishing ridge to the center that seperates the water flow  inside the green surface.

3] Now from this section and in a couterclockwise movement, decrease the green slope at a 1.5 to 2 % slope rate that continues in counterclockwise fashion until it comes around to where it started ....this is where the majority of the water exits the green surface [somewhere between eight and 9:30 ish.

4] What you are really trying to achieve is a continuous rate of drainage slope that almost pivots around itself with only one exit.....conceptually in plan it has a sliced nautilus shell resemblance.

5] One can now add all the bells, whistles and nuances they want ....the description I have tried to provide is the basic building block that I personally use and I am sure there are many other methods.

.....somehow writing this created a new recipe image in my mind of a sesame encrusted salmon with other bells and whistles...I'll post that next if it works out well.

[Tyler Kearns]

Jeff Mingay,

You took the words right out of my mouth! In this frozen-tundra we call home, adequate sub-surface drainage only works when the ground is not frozen. Because of this, all greens need to be able to shed water over their surface.

Paul,

I think I understand the method you use to surface drain a punchbowl green, but wouldn't water collect at the fringe near the low point of the green? In many places where winter can be really harsh, this would lead to perennial winter kill as ice would damage the grass when sub-surface drains cannot perform properly due to the cold weather.

TK

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tyler,

Coincidentally, the green I reference above is in Alberta. And, its problem is winter ice damage because of the bowl drainage.

That's why I ask Jeff B. where this new project is. Because, most places here in Canada, it'd be very difficult to create a punchbowl green that would last over the long term, I think.  

[Jimbo]

Nice topic.  Nice architectural discussion.

As far as agronomics, we built a "3/4" punchbowl this year with the "1/4" allowing for surface drainage out of the bowl.  We put in a massive smile drain (12" wide X 2'deep) around the entire green, and our internal drain lines are also 12" wide.
We don't freeze here, and if we did, that would make me reconsider.   Since the slopes of the "3/4" extend out 10 to 20 yards from the perimiter of the green, we capture probably 2 greens worth of water.

Its a long par 3 (240/190/160/120) and the green is blind with the water going out the middle left.  There is a huge tree left of the outfall which steers you away from that side. Any shot within 15 yards of the green has a great chance of being on the green.  Side slopes are  around 20%.

fwiw

[paul cowley]

....with enough consistent surface movement inside the green [no slow draining pocketed areas], combined with well designed subsurface drainage both in and outside the green and its surrounds, I don't see why climate zone location should matter for PB greens....if you can drain it you should be able to grow it.....IMH