Bamberger/Wei

[Steve_ Shaffer]

From Joe Logan's column in  today's Philadelphia Inquirer after an interview with Bamberger:

In his own defense, Bamberger felt he was walking a fine line. He was shadowing Wie as a reporter, there to tell her story, not as a rules official or part of her crowded entourage.

"After Wie completed the seventh hole, just to double-check, Bamberger returned to the drop spot in question and stepped off the distances. Convinced more than ever that he had witnessed an infraction, he wondered what to do.

He could have intercepted Wie as she walked off the 18th green, before she signed her card. But he believed that would be intrusive and presumptuous, especially since he didn't know Wie.

Instead, Bamberger approached Wie afterward, hoping she would say something that convinced him he was wrong and she was right. She didn't."

Intrusive and presumptuous? Why not go to a rules official and report it and let them view the videotape and/or do a reenactment BEFORE Wei signed her card?

Here's the link to the article:

www.philly.com/mld/philly/sports/12928224.htm

[RJ_Daley]

The old spin control... it seems to me.

[Dan Kelly]

The old spin control... it seems to me.

You're cynical enough to be a newspaperman!  

[Bob_Huntley]

Bamberger had every opportunity to make his concerns known...he didn't at the time and should have. By waiting he had a bigger sttory. End of spin.

[Dan Kelly]

I agree with you gentlemen that Bamberger bungled this big-time.

But the motive you imagine (bigger story) doesn't make sense to me, personally.

Bamberger doesn't strike me as a dummy -- and only a dummy would think he'd come across to the public as a hero in this tale.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

The whole thing is a mess, it is about time the tours had the balls to stand up for themselves and get rid of "tv viewer" like calls.
The game is better than that and does not deserve for it's players to be second guessed.
We are an honourable bunch, who govern ourselves very well, and in conjunction with on course officials honour the game and it's rules.
If occasionally there is a slight hiccup, as with Miss Wie...guess what that is the nature of sport..just ask Notre Dame after the bungled call on saturday...let the players govern themselves

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Was it really worth disqualification, as it was obviously unintentional and did not give her any advantage..we are talking about 6 inches closer to the hole..perhaps....I just feel as though the players govern the game so well by themselves 99% of the time, and sport in general is not about controlling all the elements of the game 100 % of the time..that is what makes it sport..mistakes are made in all sports that in retrospect could be considered in breach of the rules..they call that part of the game..I just dont feel as though golf should try to be any different.
As a sport it already display more integrity than other sports..accepting this kind of decision, to me undermines the game and it's players

[Dan Kelly]

..mistakes are made in all sports that in retrospect could be considered in breach of the rules..they call that part of the game..I just dont feel as though golf should try to be any different.
As a sport it already display more integrity than other sports..accepting this kind of decision, to me undermines the game and it's players

I respectfully disagree.

Golf should try to be as different as possible.

It's good to have one area of modern life where the rules aren't bendable.

[JohnV]

Was it really worth disqualification, as it was obviously unintentional and did not give her any advantage..we are talking about 6 inches closer to the hole..perhaps...

You seem to be saying that it is ok to bend the rules a little as long as it is an accident and nobody calls you on it right then.  I have a problem with that.  Once you say that, you allow golf to go down a very slippery slope towards disrespect for the rules.  Also, who determines if it was an accident or intentional?

As a sport it already display more integrity than other sports..accepting this kind of decision, to me undermines the game and it's players

Accepting this kind of decision shows how much integrity there is in the game.  No matter how a breach of the rules is discovered while the competition is going on, it is dealt with and the rules enforced.  

It is certainly harsh for a player to be DQ'ed and no official likes to do inform the player that they have done something which has caused them to be DQ'ed, but it is the rule and it reinforces the fact that players MUST follow the rules and should always be careful to do things correctly.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

It is not the acceptance of the rules breach that I am talking about, it is the mode in which the disqualification took place.
I just do not feel that an unofficial/ outside agency should be allowed to decide the outcome of an event that is classified as sport.
I agree with you both to a point,, that golf is above all others and that stuff...yes I agree with that, but by allowing an outside agency to  alter the outcome, to me just belittles the game and those who play it.

I am not saying bending the rules is okay, but the nature of SPORT is not to be perfect..just mho
And I believe the players themselves in this game do a great job without the help of armchair judges.

[TEPaul]

"Maybe professional players ought to do a better job with the rules.  There's only "35" of them."

redanman:

There are? And you actually said that without about nine different types of smiley faces behind it?! That's not like you.

[Bob_Huntley]

I agree with you gentlemen that Bamberger bungled this big-time.

But the motive you imagine (bigger story) doesn't make sense to me, personally.

Bamberger doesn't strike me as a dummy -- and only a dummy would think he'd come across to the public as a hero in this tale.

Dan,

I am sure that Bamberger is no dummy, on the other hand I am sure he doesn't give a s**t whether or not he comes across as a hero. His motives may be as pure as driven snow but his failure to report his misgivings at the proper time stirkes me as repellent and opportunistic.

Bob

[Steve Lang]

 

I heard Bamburger on TGC last night and it wasn't convincing in my mind that he had "pure motives", call me skeptical, but now i'll know his name when before not..

Lost in all of these rule discussion threads is how Annika tried (unsuccesfully) to bend the rules in her favor on a drop .. beyond line of sight due to scoreboard being between her and hole... she was very adamant that her interpretation was correct, but in the end relented to the rules official..  but it was strange that if she really felt so strong about her understanding in the first place, she could have played another ball and sought higher review later, but didn't..

[Dan Herrmann]

To me, in stroke play, the only people that can call rules violations should be fellow competitors, or "The Committee" as defined in the Rules of Golf.

No more TV viewers.  No more journalists.  

It's like I called the NFL and complained that Peyton Manning simulated the snap and should have been called for a false start - what's that?  It's after the game ended?  Sorry, then, the Colts are DQ'd.

It's stupid, and makes golf look like a third-rate sport when this type of thing happens.

[TEPaul]

"Improper drop, tsk, tsk, tsk.
D-OH.  As I said, the legend grows. Bobby Jones called a penalty over in the woods at Worcester on himself."

Ahh, right redanman---do you think Bob Jones called a penalty on himself in a relief situation at Worcester when, like Wie, he did not realize that he had made an improper drop?  

[Tommy_Naccarato]

All of this is more then enough reason to PLAY THE BALL DOWN--ALWAYS!!! That's the Truest spirit of the Game.  And I also agree with Dan, the rules should never be bendable.

[TEPaul]

Having thought about all this for a day or so (and like Joe Logan did in his article in the Philadelphia Inquirer on this Wie/Bamberger issue) first I should say---Full Disclosure: Bamberger is a friend of mine.

Despite that or maybe even because of it I should say too that there does seem to be some real ironies here. Firstly, most seem to want Bamberger's head for what he did, even if what he did is completely permissible under the USGA/R&A Rules of Golf and "Tournament Committee" procedures. Not to mention the fact that Bamberger is perhaps more "purist" or more "moral" on golf (and its Rules) than anyone on this website. In a sense the reaction to Bamberger seems to be a case of really "killing the messenger". Let's not forget that Bamberger, despite how or when he brought the message to the attention of the "Tournament Committee" turned out to be right, didn't he?

And furthermore, the direct evidence used to determine the "facts" that led to an adverse ruling for Wie did not come from Bamberger, they came from Wie herself and her caddie.

It is also not the purpose of the "Tournament Committee" or the USGA/R&A Rules of Golf to fix "intent" on Wie's part, their only purpose is to determine if a Rule of Golf was breached.

The "Tournament Committee" and the Rules of Golf are not in the business of fixing blame and speculating on intent. They pretty much leave stuff like that to a bunch of Monday Morning Quarterbacks like us!    

[Dan Kelly]

... most seem to want Bamberger's head for what he did...

I don't want Bamberger's head for what he did.

I don't even want his head for WHEN he did it -- but I do think he is eminently criticizable for WHEN he did what he did.

He has been around golf long enough -- as a participant and an observer -- that he has, in my mind, no excuse for apparently not having thought through this question, hypothetically: What will I do if, someday, I'm covering a golf tournament and I observe a breach in the rules?

He shouldn't have had to sleep (or not sleep) on it.

And he shouldn't have had to ask his editor what to do about it.

He should have acted Saturday, before Wie signed her card, or not at all.

His intentions are no more knowable, or relevant, than Wie's.

 

[Carlyle Rood]

Under Rule 33-7, it's within the providence of the tournament committee to waive the (disqualification) penalty.  They could have simply assessed the two-stroke penalty, adjusted her score, and moved on.

[PThomas]

good points Dan...if he had any doubt he why wouldn't he raise them there and then?

[JSlonis]

... most seem to want Bamberger's head for what he did...

He has been around golf long enough -- as a participant and an observer -- that he has, in my mind, no excuse for apparently not having thought through this question, hypothetically: What will I do if, someday, I'm covering a golf tournament and I observe a breach in the rules?

He shouldn't have had to sleep (or not sleep) on it.

And he shouldn't have had to ask his editor what to do about it.

He should have acted Saturday, before Wie signed her card, or not at all.

His intentions are no more knowable, or relevant, than Wie's.

 

We can debate all day about whether an "outsider" to the actual competition can make a rules call...BUT...since they currently are allowed to:

IMO, if there was any question of a violation in Bamberger's mind, then, as an outsider to the actual tourney, he owed it to Wie and the committee to come forth with his dispute before she was able to sign her card and the score becoming "official".  If this was brought up at the time it should have, then I'm sure Wie would have had little problem adding a 2 shot penalty to her score and signing for a 73, as opposed to getting DQ'd.

This was a weak move by Bamberger at the time.  Being around the game as he has been, he knows the ultimate consequences of these rules issues.  So while "outsider's" are allowed to affect the game, I feel he owed it to the player, to make his concerns known in the proper fashion...BEFORE she signed her card.  An honest mistake deserves a chance to be corrected properly, by a simple 2 shot penalty.  The equitable solution in this case was never given the chance to happen.

[JSlonis]

So Jamie, are you joining in the conspiracy theory that Bamburger planned it with the Wies all along?  

I'm not going there.

Although, I'm sure Bamberger will be very popular with the players in the press tent from here on

[Mike Benham]

Although, I'm sure Bamberger will be very popular with the players in the press tent from here on

Forget the press tent, I bet the players will be more upset if he is following their group !!!

[TEPaul]

"Under Rule 33-7, it's within the providence of the tournament committee to waive the (disqualification) penalty.  They could have simply assessed the two-stroke penalty, adjusted her score, and moved on."

Carlyle:

Not really. I mean technically they would be making a mockery of their own Rules of Golf. The "Decisions" are considered to be The Rules of Golf and Decision 33-7/4.5 specifically addresses Michelle Wie's situation and the answer specifically says "NO".  

[JohnV]

Under Rule 33-7, it's within the providence of the tournament committee to waive the (disqualification) penalty.  They could have simply assessed the two-stroke penalty, adjusted her score, and moved on.

Sorry Carlyle, but there is no leeway here.  Decision 33-7/4.5 says:

Q. A competitor returns his score card and the score on one hole is lower than actually taken due to failure to include a penalty of two strokes which he did not know he incurred.  The error is discovered before the competition is closed.

Would the Committee be justified, under Rule 33-7, in waiving or   modifying the penalty of disqualification prescribed in Rule 6-6d?

A. No.  It is the responsibility of the competitor to know the Rules.