What classic munis need to be rebuilt?

[Joel_Stewart]

Bethpage was rebuilt with help from the USGA and hosted the US Open.  Torrey Pines was rebuilt with help from a group of local businessmen and will host a US Open.  Harding Park was rebuilt with bond money and hosted the Amex.

What other legitimate (classic) munis could host a USGA event or PGA tour event if rebuilt.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Obviously, Cobbs Creek in Philadelphia. This has been mentioned here many times with pictures of its current sad condition. It will never host a PGA event but a Publinx is possible. The City may never spend the money or redo the lease.The current lease operator is a startup company that is probably undercapitalized. A new lease operator is possible in the future.The only answer is corporate benevolence and/or a massive civic effort led by someone of stature as Sandy Tatum did for Harding Park.The USGA  should help too.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Steve-

  I knew you'd mention that one!  

Cobbs has a lot of potential, especially the first 8 holes down around the creek and the last few.  

What would be the optimal way to rebuild it? I understand there aren't plans to be had--would one do it from aerials and pictures?  Or would one do it in the spirit of Wilson--say, bunkering strategies and appearances, angles of attack?  

I would also think that the proximity of the Creek to those holes may pose some danger to flooding--have you been in the area recently?  Perhaps the creek bed or holes in that vicinity would need to be managed differently in order to withstand instances like the recent rains better.  

[Dan_Callahan]

The Ross course at Ponkapoag Golf Club is in desperate need of help. It has loads of potential, but is consistently one of the worst conditioned courses in Massachusetts.

[PThomas]

if it's long enough, Papago Park

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Papago in Phoenix, as Paul mentioned, is another muni in need of help. Perhaps Forrest Richardson can update us on any progress by local civic leaders to infuse some money into this course that previously hosted a Publinks.

[michael_j_fay]

The answer is nearly all of them.

Ponkapaug in Boston is a neat facility but nealy unrecognizable as a golf course. Just up the way is George Wright, another Ross course with a wonderful heritage and the best clubhouse of all the munis.

In Hartford we have Keney Park, an Emmett course that tells a sad tale of neglect. Buncombe County municipal in Asheville is a great Ross example that is now overgrown and neglected.
Palatka in Florida is a neat Ross design but so badly in need of care it is nearly unplayable.

I was interested that Harding Park required $ 16 MM for the renovation. It seems a very large amount of money, certainly it could not have been spent on the course. It seems to me that $ 16 MM would take a very long time to pay off even with green fees of $ 47.00 for residents and $ 138.00 for out of towners.

Funding sources for municipal golf courses are nearly non-existent in large Northeastern cities. It seems to me that the politicians have forgotton that the pride of the City is diplayed in its parks.

For $ 3MM Buncombe County could be an exemplar. Same is true of most of these facilities. Ponky would require more due to it's 36 hole layout and current condition.

[Dale_McCallon]

I nominate the Belmont course in Richmond, VA.  Course is a Tillinghast design that held the PGA in the 40s.  It really could be a good course with some TLC.  Last time I played there, kids were riding bikes all over the course, but I really think there are some good holes worth salvaging.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

I've never played there but Sharp Park(MacKenzie) in Pacifica,CA near San Francisco was mentioned on another thread as one that Tom Doak would like to restore.Does anyone know about conditions there?

"The course, opened in 1931, was originally designed by famed architect Alister Mackenzie and landscaped by John McLaren. The par 72 course is 6,299 yards long and offers fabulous views of the Pacific Ocean and surrounding areas. This is a walkable inland and seaside course lined with Cypress and Pine trees that wraps around Laguna Salada, a natural lake ringed with reeds, cattails and tulles. Living in the marsh are a variety of birds including mallards, coots and red-winged blackbirds."

[Jason Blasberg]

What other legitimate (classic) munis could host a USGA event or PGA tour event if rebuilt.

Assuming a candidate qualifies if currently a muni, even though it historically was a private club . . . the course most likely to host a major championship if restored is Timber Point, East Islip, New York (assuming there is room for enough length).  Once the playground for summering gentry that eventually preferred the Hamptons to the Great South Bay this Golden Era masterpiece is well chronicled in Missing Links.  In addition, Dr. Bill Quirin discusses a bit of Timber Point's history:  

"After organizing is July of 1923, the founders [including Horace Havemeyer] hired Colt & Alison to design an 18-hole golf course.  It was nearly two years before the project was completed, because it took a year to dredge up enough sand to fill in the marshland and reclaim 100 acres from Great South Bay.  The result was a magnificent test of golf among the sand dunes.  It quickly took its place among the country's finest courses . . ..  The first nine at Timber Point played through forests of pines, with several holes reminiscent of Pine Valley."  Golf Clubs of the MGA pgs. 301-02.

The back nine hugged the Great South Bay, with its most recognized hole named Gibralter, an uphill long 3 par playing into the prevailing wind off the Bay it is a horizon green and great 3.5 par.  I grew up playing Timber Point after Suffolk County purchased the property from a struggling membership and a third nine holes was stuffed into the original 18, destroying 6 original holes.  

It turns out my great uncle was a member of one of Timber Point's last memberships, that varied over time, and I only wish I had been born to see that original 18.

There's still some great golf holes out there, but poor conditioning and green speeds like shag carpet leave much to the imagination.  

This course, if re-stored through what I imagine would be a private-public partnership, could host a US Open if there's enough length out there at the site.  I'd say it shouldn't be lengthened too much but without that length a major it couldn't host and without that major, a restoration in could not be since Suffolk County will have to be convinced to lose not only the revenue while the course is shut down but a third of it's volume when 27 holes is returned to 18.  I'm sure a share of the concessions would more than make of the County's loss.  

This project, however, would be one of the greatest ever undertaken and would be the closest we could get to restoring a course similar in origin and design to the even more famed Lido Club.            

   

   

[Tom Dunne]

Triggs Memorial in Providence could use some love. It's better these days than it used to be, but that's a course with "good bones" that could really shine with some money well-spent.

[Cliff Hamm]

Triggs is too short to host a tour event but is a wonderful Donald Ross layout.  The clubhouse has the Ross designs for each hole so it could be completely restored if the money was available.

[THuckaby2]

I'm sure there are many munis at which this could be done if the will is strong enough.  Challenging the pros is not all that difficult of a concept.

My question - and apologies to Joel for the diversion - is WHY?  Why should anyone do this to a muni?  Is the net effect really a positive?

As great as yesterday's event was at Harding, I'd argue that the net effect there is a negative.  Yes the course was made to be tough but fair for the pros, wonderfully so.  The course also is just for the most part boring and unimaginative, as well as being overpriced, for the rank and file golfer.  One can't help but wonder what might have been done if it the course could have been revived not with a goal of challenging the pros, but with a mindset toward making it fun for the rank and file.

It's definitely arguable whether a net positive was achieved at Torrey Pines - heck that's been argued on here seemingly ad nauseam, with strong views on both sides.

Apaprently a great net positive was achieved at Bethpage.  But there are dissenters about that as well....

I guess it is a neat thing to see how the pros fare at our munis.  But is it worth doing given the pros play them so infrequently?  Aren't these courses supposed to be playgrounds for the masses, not the elite?

TH

[BCrosby]

North Fulton, Atlanta. (Egan, Maxwell)

Now too short for big time events, but some very, very good holes.

The "problem" is that the course has always been enormously popular. Upgrading it would not increase rounds appreciably and no one wants Fulton County to increase green fees. So gov't officials ask, quite correctly (unfortunately), what's the payoff to the fisc for investing a couple of million in the course?

Bob

[Bruce Katona]

How about The Knoll in Parsippany, NJ?   I think some work is being done currently, but the couse certainly would provide the test for a Publinks or other USGA event.  

[Jason Blasberg]

My question - and apologies to Joel for the diversion - is WHY?  Why should anyone do this to a muni?  Is the net effect really a positive?

Apaprently a great net positive was achieved at Bethpage.  But there are dissenters about that as well....

TH

Tom:

I think the answer is in part practical, at least that's the case with Bethpage.  Without the allure of hosting a major for the pros I doubt such an expensive renovation would have been done in the first place.  And, while access is more difficult now, there's no comparison in terms of the improved quality of the Black, no small part of that is the greatly enhanced maintainance budget.  As a kid I enjoyed being able to walk up to the Black course on any day (save Monday) at 4:00 a.m. and be off in one of the first few groups before 7:00 a.m., however, the course was in below average condition and the bunkers were literally caving-in in many places.  

Now access is much more difficult but you can still walk on most week days as a single arriving about 8:00 a.m. and returning for an early afternoon tee time on what is now one of, if not the best, conditioned golf course on LI.  

Personally, I'll pay the access price for the return in quality.  As for difficulty, so long as you don't walk back to the Open tees it's still a very playable course, certainly around bogey.

The net positive impact for Timber Point would be much better, IMO, because you would revive a sleeping if not comatose world class links that the Everyday Man can play.  If the price to pay for a local is 1 round for every 5 because access is more difficult, that one round would be 1000 times better than before.  

[A.G._Crockett]

North Fulton, Atlanta. (Egan, Maxwell)

Now too short for big time events, but some very, very good holes.

The "problem" is that the course has always been enormously popular. Upgrading it would not increase rounds appreciably and no one wants Fulton County to increase green fees. So gov't officials ask, quite correctly (unfortunately), what's the payoff to the fisc for investing a couple of million in the course?

Bob

Bob,
You beat me to this, and I agree on all counts.  I wonder if simply renovating the greens with something like Champion Bermuda (which is only a few 100K) is an option?

Have you been there recently?  I haven't been in 6 or 7 years, and have no idea of the current condition.

[Joel_Stewart]

My question - and apologies to Joel for the diversion - is WHY?  Why should anyone do this to a muni?  Is the net effect really a positive?

Why not?  I can't think of any reason to leave a classic course in poor condition denying the paying person a good round of golf.   Its good for golf, golf architecture and the golfing person.  You could make an argument its good for the environment, trimming trees and allowing good grass to grow healthy.  

Sharp Park:
Its a long story but the course sits on the ocean and the seawall needed to be shored up.  Before anyone thought of restorations or preserving classic architecture the course was destroyed by Robert Muir Graves in 1972.  There are still 6 (correct me if I am wrong) Mackenzie holes across the road. I think Tom Doak has written that the holes holes rerouted by Graves could be mostly restored.  

[THuckaby2]

Jason:

At Harding "practical" was most definitely the answer.  That is, absent the Tour connection the revival never would have been done.  And this is a course that was worth reviving,  because it sits on a wonderful piece of land, has a rich history and really was awful for too long.

I understand this reality.

I just don't have to like it, that's all.  

I yearn for a reality in which the course could have been revived with the daily player in mind.  Because they REALLY could have made something there if that was the goal.

As it is, it's a nice golf course - tough but fair, great for the game of "flog" as was proven yesterday... It's just not all that much fun to play - first 15 holes anyway.  The last three are very cool.

In any case I don't intend this to be all about Harding.  Isn't there a case somewhere where a run-down or otherwise neglected muni could be made into something better with the daily player in mind?  Isn't Ken Kavanaugh doing something like that somewhere in Arizona?

Those are the courses that deserve praise.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Joel:

Improve them - yes.  So perhaps me saying Harding was a "net negative" is way too strong.  Although some might argue that the principle shown there is a net negative... tough but fair is what it's all about... longer is better... FLOG is the game du jour, not creative golf... But that's a tough argument to make given how awful the course was before. Let's call it a "not as much of a net positive as what they might have done in a more perfect world."

THis is what I'm asking.  Improve them yes, gear them toward tour pros, no.

Thoughts on that?

TH

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Re Ken Kavanugh in Tucson, AZ

Dell Urich,El Rio and Silverbell were recently redone to high praise. I have posted about these projects here.

www.tucsoncitygolf.com

www.kenkavanaugh.com

[THuckaby2]

Steve - thanks - my short-term memory isn't as bad as I thought!

 

See, that's what I have in mind.  Nothing against Harding, and I am definitely breaking my promise not to rain on the parade re that course right now, but can't we have more of those you mention and less Hardings?  

[Joel_Stewart]

Tom:
I was only trying to set the bar so somebody didn't write that Alameda muni should be rebuilt (which it should be).  Furthermore, tour pros and people with low handicaps should be able to play the course as well as people of all handicaps.   The classics as many people have written either have some history or was originally built by a classic architect.  

The entire Harding love affair is really disappointing in the press didn't talk about the enormous costs and missing dollars and the use of the PGA tour architects.  I'm going to start another thread on this.

[THuckaby2]

Joel - gotcha - we are copacetic on this for sure.  Again sorry for the diversion.  I'll chime in on your new thread for sure, because a lot bothers me too about the lovefest going on about Harding.

TH

[Lynn_Shackelford]

"Funding sources for municipal golf courses are nearly non-existent in large Northeastern cities. It seems to me that the politicians have forgotton that the pride of the City is diplayed in its parks."

Michael J. Fay, good line, I agree.