News:

This discussion group is best enjoyed using Google Chrome, Firefox or Safari.


Brent Hutto

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #25 on: October 09, 2005, 09:40:10 PM »
I'll wager you that distance doesn't max itself out in 2005.

I wouldn't take that bet at any odds. Not only is distance going up again next year, ball performance for high clubhead speeds will go up again in the future. I don't forsee any effective limitation being in place in the near future to keep the manufacturers from getting 1.1% more distance out of every 1.0% more clubhead speed, just as they have for the past several years.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #26 on: October 09, 2005, 09:48:17 PM »
Brent,

If you'll look at the statistics you'll see that the incremental increases far, far exceed .1% per year.

Just look at the increases subsequent to Ron Prichard's letter.

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #27 on: October 09, 2005, 10:18:45 PM »
brent said:

>After reading the latest USGA propaganda in October's "Inside the USGA,"  I concur with Geoff's observations.  They talk out of both sides of their mouth so many times in the article that it's almost dizzying.


I'm so dizzy, I can't believe a word they are saying.........


 ::) :P :-[
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

T_MacWood

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #28 on: October 09, 2005, 10:42:52 PM »
I'd like to see the game where three hour rounds are the standard, walking is common place and green fees are more reasonable.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2005, 10:44:20 PM by Tom MacWood »

A_Clay_Man

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #29 on: October 09, 2005, 10:47:21 PM »
Isn't the obvious answer to Geoff's question, because they violated the rules? Outside the limits of acceptable COR.

I will agree it does seem as though they are putting this article out as a trial balloon. See how many feathers get ruffled. testing the waters. see who's paying attention, and how many.

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #30 on: October 09, 2005, 10:51:20 PM »
Namely, "What game shall we play ?"
1760, 1860, 1910, 1965 or 2005 ?

The issue shouldn't be viewed solely in the context of distance, rather it should be viewed in the context of overall performance, including trajectory, curvature, spin, etc., etc..

To what performance year should the USGA dial back the ball ?

And, Why ?



Just out of curiosity, WHAT ball would the USGA be dialing back?  Given that the premium balls like the ProVI are NOT the longest balls out there, wouldn't the dial-back have to be across the board?  And, since the ProVI's aren't as long as the Pinnacles, Top-Flites, etc., I guess the dial-back for those would have to be larger, right?  So we'd be punishing the lesser golfer by a greater % than the Tour players, right?  Sounds like a plan!  Grow the game by making it harder!

I would assume that the USGA has thought of ALL of the stuff that we have, and then some.  That may be the reason that they are going slower than a lot of us would like.  You know, so they don't screw it up...

Sorry to inject a note of realism. :-\
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Brent Hutto

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #31 on: October 10, 2005, 06:35:03 AM »
If you'll look at the statistics you'll see that the incremental increases far, far exceed .1% per year.

I didn't say .1% or 1.1% per year. I said "...getting 1.1% more distance out of every 1.0% more clubhead speed..." by which I meant that not only were the clubhead speeds of the strongest golfers increasing but as they swing harder new balls give a greater than proportional increase in ball speed coming off the clubface.

Now for all I know they might make a ball that's 1.3% faster for every 1.0% higher clubhead speed but my point is any effective regulation of distance will have include regulation of how fast the ball comes off the club at clubhead speeds greater than today's Tour players.

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #32 on: October 10, 2005, 09:09:37 AM »
Adam Clayman asked:

“Isn't the obvious answer to Geoff's question, because they violated the rules? Outside the limits of acceptable COR.”

Here’s Geoff’s question:

“If everything up to now is progress in their view and a natural part of an evolving sport, then why are they stepping in now?”

If, as Geoff says, they are finally stepping in now, or are saying or implying they are, then one does need to ask what has changed from the past in their minds. But, for a moment, lets try taking a look at the specific issue of COR, the specific subject Adam Clayman surmised as perhaps the issue that got their attention.

I think I just may know some of the recent history of COR, particularly insofar as how someone first became aware of its effect on distance, how the USGA became aware of it and then how they felt it contributed to a significant distance spike. Not just that but very coincidentally a friend of mine said something about it about four years ago that really does seem coincidental (insofar as what he had to do with it and the fact I happen to know him). Here’s that quick story.

On a plane to Ireland in 2001 with a group of golfers from my club I was sitting next to a friend of mine who is something of a professional COO and early on in his career for golf manufacturing companies. I can’t remember what year it was he mentioned but while he was the COO of Wilson his company manufactured a composite insert face on a persimmon driver and found they were getting an anomaly with it in their own distance testing. They called the USGA (Frank Thomas) and told him about this anomaly. And then apparently they sent the club to the USGA for testing.

Around 2003, I don’t think I’m mistaken in saying that I mentioned this story to Frank Thomas (Wayne Morrison and Willie Dow were with me) and Frank did confirm that this was around the first time the USGA became aware of an actual driver face COR increase contributing to actual distance increase. (the irony is for years the I&B rules specs included a prohibition against “spring-like effect” but it seems that they’d never been aware of such a thing in a distance enhancing way with a driver.

So what was the USGA’s position at that point (that they first became aware of this distance enhancing anomaly of this composite face)? It may’ve been to deem it non-conforming at that point. However, to do that in a comprehensive way in the context of I&B rules and regs they also had to come up with a test for a COR increase in a driver face and perhaps establish an actual numerical limitation on COR (a new I&B rule on it).

I guess you can see what I’m getting at here. This is probably the way it happens and the reason the October 2005 USGA newsletter mentions that the USGA Tech Center has almost always been in a “reactive” mode and stance (rather than a “proactive” mode) when new technology and new science comes down the I&B pipeline at them. The short answer is when it comes to new technology they have to create a new test to test and analyze it and establish new I&B rules and regs to encompass and limit it. That may be the interesting and recent history of COR and its enhancing effect on distance in the last twenty or so years.

So, I’m not sure who Adam Clayman is referring to when he says “they” broke the rules on COR. Does he mean the USGA or the manufacturers? I assume he means the manufacturers. I will check again with Frank Thomas on this COR history but I think it can be seen that the manufacturers didn’t exactly break the rules on COR----only that when this new technology appeared (COR increase on the face of a driver) there really were no rules in the USGA/R&A regulations to encompass it. That they had to come up a test for it, to analyze it first, and then establish a rule to put limitations on it.

I think the record will show that by the time the USGA’s Tech Center created a test and began analyzing COR on drivers there already was equipment out there that exceeded the limitation of what Frank Thomas was recommending the limitation on COR should be on a driver. What did Frank Thomas recommend the limitation on driver COR should be? The record shows he recommended the COR on the face of a regular persimmon driver (app .78 or .79). Did the Board of the USGA accept and adopt his recommendation? Apparently not.

And then ensued more COR testing and eventually the establishment of .86 as the COR limitation on a driver. Why .86? Probably because at that point there was so much equipment out there up to or at that number. What was Frank Thomas recommendation for a limitation on driver COR at that point? Apparently the record shows he still recommended it should be the COR on the face of a regular persimmon driver (app .78 or .79). But apparently the Board did not accept his recommendation again. Why was that? Perhaps it was that they could see how much equipment was already out there and that if they accepted Frank's recommendation they'd be deeming "non-conforming" a ton of equipment in the hands of golfers at that time. So what, you say? Well, I guess, to them the "so what?" was if that doesn't smell like a mass of lawsuits, then what does?

And then I think we all know what the R&A’s position on COR of a driver was. For four years their position was that they would not adopt the USGA’s recommendation and limitation (first .86 and then later .83 when it could be phased in) because they could not see or could not believe that COR even had a distance enhancing effect.

This should show why the USGA’s October 2005 Newsletter said the Tech Center was most always in a “reactive” mode to new technology coming down the pipllne they were not aware of the effects of. Was the R&A in a “reactive” mode on COR at that time, like the USGA was? I’d say for four years, at least, on driver COR they hadn’t even managed to get to a "reactive" mode-----more like about four years with their heads in the sand before finally figuring it out and endorsing the USGA's "reactive" COR limitation regulation!   ;)

Those are the facts and the realities of COR as I know them, boys. Your recommendation to the USGA Tech Center seems to be that they should've simply adopted NIKE's motto of "Just Do It." Well, when you begin to understand the realities and the legalities of how the USGA/R&A and manufacturer world of I&B really works you may be able to see that a "Just Do It" policy really might've getten them sued up the gazoo. And they probably would've lost to.

What was Frank Thomas's recommendation to effect a COR limitation of app .78 or .79? I don't know, maybe I'll ask him. But it would seem that logically it must have been to just establish a rule on COR of .78 or .79 and give manufacturers enough time to phase that in and give golfers enough time to phase out the "non-conforming" drivers that were out there. If that had happened we may've been all playing with COR drivers with a COR limitation of .78 or .79 for perhaps the last ten years!!   ;)

What were Frank Thomas's recommendations on the onset of the "new-age" golf ball as well as the onset of this other distance enhancing factor they call "optimization" (the other two factors of the three factors (including COR increase) that most attribute the recent (last fifteen years) distance spike to)?

Frank's recommendations on the new age ball seems more complex but the saga of his development and plans for the "USGA Optimization" test is pretty bizarre, at least it seems to me to be.  ;)
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 09:42:33 AM by TEPaul »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #33 on: October 10, 2005, 10:07:39 AM »
Tom Paul,
Excellent and informative post, and thanks for it.  

I have a question.  Do you think it is realistically possible for the USGA to proactive rather than reactive as we go forward? I mean that seriously, and I ask that because it seems to me that the USGA has no good way to anticipate exactly where technology is headed at a given moment.  As you say, first they have to know what the development is, then devise a test and standards, by which time the technology may be in widespread use, if not already exceeded by something even newer.

Given that, maybe saying "2005" as a stopping point is the best that could possibly be done.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

Ted Kramer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #34 on: October 10, 2005, 10:14:47 AM »
Tom Paul,
Excellent and informative post, and thanks for it.  

I have a question.  Do you think it is realistically possible for the USGA to proactive rather than reactive as we go forward? I mean that seriously, and I ask that because it seems to me that the USGA has no good way to anticipate exactly where technology is headed at a given moment.  As you say, first they have to know what the development is, then devise a test and standards, by which time the technology may be in widespread use, if not already exceeded by something even newer.

Given that, maybe saying "2005" as a stopping point is the best that could possibly be done.

Why can't the ball be rolled back?
What would happen if the USGA, R&A, PGA Tour, European Tour, etc., decided that all competitions would be played with a balata?

-Ted

Brent Hutto

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #35 on: October 10, 2005, 10:23:07 AM »
Why can't the ball be rolled back?
What would happen if the USGA, R&A, PGA Tour, European Tour, etc., decided that all competitions would be played with a balata?

If the Tours started using Balata balls, the endorsement money from ball manufacturers to Tour players would decrease to a tiny fraction of its current amount.

If the USGA said that only Balata balls were conforming, I'd expect the following consequences:
1) They'd be the laughing stock of the entire golf culture
2) Most casual golfers would cease to comply with the USGA ball rules
3) They would be sued into the next century by every ball manufacturer

Other than that, it's a great idea ::)

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #36 on: October 10, 2005, 10:25:34 AM »
"I have a question.  Do you think it is realistically possible for the USGA to proactive rather than reactive as we go forward? I mean that seriously, and I ask that because it seems to me that the USGA has no good way to anticipate exactly where technology is headed at a given moment."

A.G.

That's the question, and if you read that last USGA October 2005 Newsletter closely that is a lot of what they mention and appear to be focusing on. They even talk about significantly reducing "answer time" on conformance issues.

How will they do that? Firstly, the Tech Center looks at most of these issues differently than we do. To us all it's about is just distance and limiting it immediately. To them it's all about their tests and testing.

Perhaps you're not aware of it but in the last three years (since 2002) the USGA has been conducting a $10 million dollar test on the golf ball and all they can learn about it's potential distance enhancing factors and components. This is clearly their way of getting up to speed and perhaps either ahead of or more abreast of anything that might come down the pipeline regarding golf ball science and technology. I've been aware of this for three years but it was confirmed last week when Dick Rugge spoke to 85 of us. As for distance enhancing effects of "implements" I'd think that would be a bit hazier to forsee what new rules and regulations may be necessary in the future due to new realities and technologies.

The thing we all must keep in mind, though, is for many decades the USGA/R&A has had and does have the ability to deem balls or implements "non conforming" in the context of their I&B rules and regs, ODS etc. But when they do that and have done that in the past those balls and implements are clearly "non-confoming" in the context of their present and current I&B rules and regulations.

What we are talking about here in the last 15-20 years as the three basic factors that contributed to this distance increase (1. COR, 2. a new age ball, 3. "Optimization", and perhaps the prevalence of far lighter materials should be mentioned too) are all factors that were accomplished within the USGA's I&B current Rules and Regulations during those times. Some of that happened because of new technologies they simply did not have rules or regulations for or sufficiently limiting rules or regulations. That's precisely what their "Notice and Comment" period is all about. It's a procedure to formally and legally bring in new rules and regulations and altered ones to encompass and control new realiities and new and unexpected technologies.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 10:30:56 AM by TEPaul »

A_Clay_Man

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #37 on: October 10, 2005, 10:36:09 AM »
Tom- Thanks for that. It helps to explain the nature of all technology, and how those who are trying to protect their systems(products, networks etc.) have an ever increasing battle. It's ever increasing because it is much easier to be on the offensive, trying to corrupt networks and out think the latest technologies. It is much more difficult to be protective, because the invaders have the advantages of adapting to the new defenses, once they are encountered. War is the same way.

One of the fascinating legal strategies, inorder to mitgate lawsuit exposure, from people who are adversly affected by those who have stolen info, data, or corrupted networks, is to have a law firm do the evaluations of their system. And more importantly to have these law firms oversee the company's plan to counter-act the attacks and defend.

The reason why it is so important to have a law firm do it, is because the results are then protected under attorney client privledge. Opposed to having an independant computer firm evaluate your defenses, so when there is a lawsuit, those results are not protected and therefore can be picked apart by other lawyers, as flaws, which leads to culpability and being liable.

While I do appreciate the post Tom, The question (which turns out not be a question) was this.

Quote
But the question of a date in time where the equipment should be rolled back to also seems to call into question why people like Mr. Fay were so concerned about distance increases in 1998 during the ERC saga

So it was Fay and the usga, who were willing to put their jobs and the organization on the line, over the ERC issue.

When was the .86 cor adopted?

When was Fay put in charge and made responsible for the whole kit and kabootle?

If it was after, the increased technologies were knowable or implemented, why wasn't it a former shepherd's responsibility to have the vision for curtailing the distance the ball could travel? Which makes pointing the finger at Fay and the current board, something like closing the gate after the horses have all run off.

Just curious.


TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #38 on: October 10, 2005, 11:07:01 AM »
Here's what I'd like to see happen in USGA/R&A I&B Rules and Regulations including ODS as both "impliments" and balls relate to it.

1. Add to the present five factors or areas of rules and regulations on golf ball specs, a sixth factor. This would be called "spin rate". For the first time a rule or regulation would be established limiting the MINIMUM amount of spin rate a golf ball could have and still be deemed as "conforming". I would like to see the minimum allowable spin rate on a golf ball be something akin to the spin rate of the balata ball of about 1990. This does not mean the golf ball must be soft or of any particular construction (such as the old 3 piece balata) only that the allowable spin rate of any golf ball must not be less than X.

2. I would like to see COR on the face of drivers or "woods" be set at the limitation Frank Thomas originally recommended when COR as a distance enhancing factor became a reality---eg app .78 or .79.

3. I would like to see the size of the head of a golf club be limited to no more than 350cc.

All the rest of the new technologies---eg light-weight materials, perimeter weighting, whatever, they can keep as "Conforming". "Optimization" (computer testing for the ideal combination of club and ball) I wouldn't even mention as there's no reason to try to stop people from using computers in the future. ;)

Now, how the USGA would actually go about proposing and establishing those new Rules and Regulations I cannot exactly say but I'd assume they'd simply propose doing it through their traditional "Notice and Comment" procedure and if accepted their traditional "lead-in" time of perhaps 3-5 years for manufacturer retooling and compliance and the time to work down present inventories and equipment that's already out there in the hands of golfers.

I believe the intent and the stated reason (on their part) for doing this should be to squarely stand behind golf course architecture (the playing fields of the game they're dedicated to monitoring and preserving) that's current so that it may continue to be effective right on into the future.

I feel the tests today are much better than yesteryear and that in the future the ODS on golf balls and distance should be a "pass/fail" line on "carry" distance only. Perhaps they may even want to rename this testing factor "CDS" ("Carry Distance Standard") rather than "Overall Distance Standard" (ODS).

I think the present MPH test protocol of 120MPH is probably sufficient. I'd advise them to set a CDS limit given the factors above of X (maybe it would be something like 270 yards at 120MPH).

Once that is estatblished the only thing that could conform to a greater carry distance than that (in neutral conditions) would be golfers with swing speeds that exceeded 120MPH.

To me the MPH a player generates is all about skill and if golfers in the future generate swing speeds in excess of 120MPH given the aforementioned rules and regulations, then God love them----let them legally carry the ball more than 270 yards in neutral conditions.
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 11:14:38 AM by TEPaul »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #39 on: October 10, 2005, 11:32:43 AM »
Tom,
I'm in favor of more spin as opposed to a distance "rollback", which I truly believe is unworkable, and changing the COR seems to be relatively easy for clubs coming onto the market after a certain date.  The clubhead size might be more difficult.  Two other questions for you:

As to the spin rate, would that not make the Topflites and Pinnacles shorter and harder to control?  (I'm asking, not telling! :))
If so, would we be making the game harder for the least skilled players?

Secondly, would you recommend grandfathering in the COR and clubhead sizes you advocate, given the vast number of clubs out there at larger sizes and higher COR numbers?  How would you implement?
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #40 on: October 10, 2005, 11:39:34 AM »
An honest question:

Does the game really need to be easier to 'sell' it?



If so, can golf survive with those that appreciate the challenge it presents?

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #41 on: October 10, 2005, 11:40:13 AM »
Adam:  

Eli Callaway clearly manufacturerd and attempted to market within the USGA's purview a driver that was above the current USGA COR limitation regulation at that time. The USGA had deemed that Callaway driver "non-conforming" (as had the RCGC). The R&A refused to endorse the USGA's COR limitation regulation and stated they did not believe COR increase was a significant factor in distance increase. Four years later the R&A finally endorsed the USGA's COR limitation regulation.

Callaway sued the RCGC for deeming its driver "non-conforming" (the RCGA was going along with the USGA's COR limitation regulation), a classic case of the bully picking on the little kid on the block in hopes of getting the bigger kid (the USGA) to back down.

Callaway even tried to coerce the USGA into backing down on its COR limitation regulation by using Arnold Palmer very publicly as its spokesman. Palmer sat on the dias with Eli Callaway and stated to the public that he felt the USGA should back down on its COR limitation regulation in something like the name of the recreational golfer having more fun.

The truth is Callaway paid Palmer a ton to say that and even if Palmer may've felt that more distance for the recreational golfer would be a good idea I no longer have any respect for Palmer, the man, or as a man with any inherent integrity (for doing something like that). Palmer later (when the shit hit the fan) said he probably wouldn't have done something like that if Winnie was around at that time. How much of a sham is Palmer anyway, or how greedy or even dumb is he to first do something like that and after he sees it didn't work very well use an even dumber exuse? What did Palmer need to do most of his life---check with Winnie if he had some question of what integrity, ethics and morals are and aren't? The man was a great golfer, a golfer who inspired a generation and more, who vitalized an entire sport in a way it never had been before. He did that by being really good and with a charming personality. However, obviously a charming personality didn't translate very well to an understanding of integrity, at least as it pertained to his roll with the USGA.

When Callaway (with Palmer) tried to market the "non-conforming" ERC2 driver in the States there most certainly was a USGA COR limitation regulation, and that driver exceeded it. Of course that "non-conforming" driver was legal in the rest of the world because the R&A refused to address the COR issue with a limitation regulation, and they refused to endorse the USGA's COR limitation regulation.

« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 12:04:59 PM by TEPaul »

A.G._Crockett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2005, 11:52:21 AM »
An honest question:

Does the game really need to be easier to 'sell' it?



If so, can golf survive with those that appreciate the challenge it presents?

I don't think the game needs to be easier than it currently is.  However, that is a different thing than making it harder!

The answer to the second question is "Of course".  However, it might pose growth issues at some point for a game that will always have inherent growth issues due to the time and money involved.
"Golf...is usually played with the outward appearance of great dignity.  It is, nevertheless, a game of considerable passion, either of the explosive type, or that which burns inwardly and sears the soul."      Bobby Jones

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2005, 12:01:09 PM »
Fair enough A.G.,

When I think of what people want the game to be today versus what I hear about it 30, 50, 80 years ago I can't help but think our own expectations hurt the game. I guess there are those few places that still play the game with hickories that answer my question of "why don't we just accept golf for what it is? A very difficult game." Not that I never would, but you don't see me playing with hickories, or even persimmon so I guess I can't bitch about people wanting the game to be easier. Just human nature really.

Lou_Duran

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #44 on: October 10, 2005, 12:52:44 PM »
Sean Arble,

To the extent that everyone surpassing the artificial 240 yard maximum objective is the result of "hard work, practice and physical prowess", then the world and the game are as they should be.  That would only happen over very long periods of time.  My simplistic, underdeveloped suggestions are aimed to make the game at the highest levels more about skill and ability over time, and much less dependent on the best designed, manufactured, and calibrated equipment (a PGA Tour player I know told me that by simply spending a few days at the Ping facility in AZ, he picked-up some 20 yards on his drives through fitting a head, shaft, and ball combination to his swing, without losing accuracy- though he now had to pay more attention to some bunkers, hazards, and longer turning points).    

As I've tried to articulate, I am not concerned about the playing masses and modern technology.  I do not recommend meddling with club events, tournaments, weekend games, or corporate outings.

The USGA probably should better define what it considers to be "for the good of the game".  There is a wide range of opinions on this very subject right here on this site.  I know one individual here making a living in the public segment of the business who does not care if more people play the game (he believes that he can compete in a flat or declining market) and longs for the days when the average golfer was more traditional and genteel.   Others believe that "growing the business" 3 - 5% annually is critical if the game is going to survive and eventually return to reasonable economic health.

Pro and high-level amateur golf is important in that it sets the standards or goals and inspires many would-be participants to get out there and do it.  Except for the athletically talented, golf is a very difficult game.  Add its high cost and time demands, and it should not come as a surprise that the game is having a hard time attracting new aspirants.

To the extent that modern technology may help or give hope to the less talented, it is a very good thing.  Unfortunately, like with so many other things in life, technology is more efficiently used by those with greater capabilities.  The result is that the gap between the haves and the have nots continues to increase.

I would probably not be a proponent of the tournament ball if we were not at a time in history when land, zoning, environmental regulations, construction costs, and competitive demands for real estate are so complicated and expensive.  Expanding existing courses and building new longer ones are just not reasonable alternatives anymore.

So, for the good of the game as I define it, I am willing to bifurcate the rules of an already bifurcated game.  What Daley and Woods did on #18 this weekend would not even enter the imagination of 95% of us.  The roll-back is not relevant to us.  If "punishment" is due, apply it to those who merit it.  Let the game and its architecture "evolve" in the current range of 6,500 to 7,500 yards.  For the vast majority this is the relevant range.  For the few who may like the livelier ball and have the capacity to get its maximum benefit, there is no one stopping them from building that rare 8,000 yard monster.

In the final analysis, just like we like courses with diversity and options, we should feel similarly about the rules and traditions of the game.  In spirit, it should all be about choices.  A tournament ball does place limitations on a relative few, but it is not an all encompassing, de-facto curtailment.  If Tiger wants to hit his customized Nike ball, no one says he can't go to Augusta National or Merion and have at it.  It just wouldn't be during the Masters or a potential US Open.  Should the sponsor (presenting authority, ruling body, etc.) not also have choices?  

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #45 on: October 10, 2005, 01:28:55 PM »
AGCrockett,

Was the game harder in 1960 ?
Was the game harder in 1970 ?
Was the game harder in 1980 ?
Was the game harder in 1990 ?

The game enjoyed great popularity in those years.

What's wrong with playing any of those games ?

And, would you answer my question with respect to what happened in the UK when the "Small" ball was banned, and the larger American ball mandated for play ?

Did golf in the UK suffer ?
Did golf in the UK become harder to the point that the game was abandoned by substantive numbers of golfers ?

OR, did the game continue to be enjoyable, prosper and grow ?

With respect to your question to me.
It's not that you would dial back a specific ball.

The phrase "dial back" is merely a simple method of describing the global intent of harnessing the performance of today's balls and equipment in simple terms., not the detailed process.

You wouldn't dial back any particular ball, you'd create specs that would produce the desired performance standards in A ball.

Does anyone recall the history of how and why the "one ball" rule came into being ?

What was the date that the "one ball" rule was adopted ?
« Last Edit: October 10, 2005, 01:34:01 PM by Patrick_Mucci »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #46 on: October 10, 2005, 01:38:48 PM »
Why don't those who think that the sky will fall if the ball is dialed back examine what happened to golf in the UK when the small ball was banned and the larger ball was mandated for play ?

Did golf in the UK suffer ?

Or did it continue to be enjoyable, prosper and grow ?

I saw Ran Morrissett play several rounds at Sand Hills using hickories from the early 1900's and he had a great time.

Recently, I lost an incredible amount of distance, and had to alter my thinking and my game, but, I enjoyed playing golf as much as I ever did.

Why do those of you who are opposed to a dial back with the ball and equipment think that the sky will fall and the game will lose its lure ?

IT WON"T.

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #47 on: October 10, 2005, 01:59:05 PM »
Is this fear Pat refers to, and I alluded to as well based on the "if you build it they will come" philosophy of golf course construction?

Do we have so many courses that we now have to find ways to get people out to them, or at least keep the ones we have? All this under the guise of a game in which you can do what the pros do. I suppose all sports sell innovation based on making the game somehow easier, does golf need this "easier" tag?

I am not a proponent of shutting down technology or innovation, but golf should be hard. 60 year olds that do not practice should not be longer and more accurate than they were when they were 30 and practicing a bit. How do we get golf in line with other sports in that respect? How do you make par a good score again?

Brent Hutto

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2005, 02:09:57 PM »
The sky won't fall and the game will not disappear if the distance the ball flies is decreased.

The sky won't fall and the game will not disappear if the distance the ball flies increases.

The range of possible outcomes is quite limited. The sorts of distance increases seen in the past 15 years may continue indefinitely or at the other extreme the distances that exist now may be "rolled back" by a few percent. There is no chance that a Tour player will average driving the ball 400 yards a couple years from now just like there is no chance that we'll revert to playing persimmon woods and wound balata balls. However it works out, the sky will not fall.

TEPaul

Re:The USGA asks a fair question.
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2005, 02:29:54 PM »
"Does anyone recall the history of how and why the "one ball" rule came into being?"

Patrick:

Are you asking because you'd like to know or is this some kind of test? Yeah, I think I remember the history of how and why the "One Ball" rule came into being?

"What was the date that the "one ball" rule was adopted?"

Patrick, are you asking because you want to know or is this some kind of test? ;)

Furthermore, are you asking what date the USGA adopted the "One Ball" Rule or are you asking what date the R&A adopted the "One Ball" rule? If you're asking because you want to know I'll tell you but if you're asking as some sort of test I'm not gonna tell you----you can figure it out for yourself and tell me. Then we can see if you're right.   ;)

(I'll IM the answer to Wayne and he can confirm my answer)

Tags:
Tags:

An Error Has Occurred!

Call to undefined function theme_linktree()
Back