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Tim Gavrich

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Unfairness in design
« on: October 09, 2005, 10:13:32 AM »
Whenever I talk to people at length about different golf courses, there's usually some debate about "fairness" in different holes.  The people who cry "unfair" at different holes are not usually successful when they play them.  The counter argument is that the hole is the same for everyone who plays it on a given day.

I'm hesitant to label a golf hole/hole location unfair, except in the most extreme cases.  the only general one that comes to mind is a hole cut on such a steep section of green that, when putting from below, the ball will roll back to the player if it is not holed.  But of course, this is open to interpretation.
Senior Writer, GolfPass

Forrest Richardson

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2005, 10:18:53 AM »
The only unfair hole is one on which a cup has not been cut.
« Last Edit: October 09, 2005, 10:20:08 AM by Forrest Richardson »
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
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Patrick_Mucci

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2005, 10:39:53 AM »
Tim,

Most people evaluate golf holes in the context of how the hole integrates with their particular game.

It's usually a very selfish, biased evaluation.

What's fair for one may be deemed unfair by another.

The architect is a disinterested third party who favors no particular faction, who forges a tactical challenge for all players, with no undue weight given to a particular game.

As to hole location, there should be no appreciable change in slope within three feet of the hole, and the slope and green speed should be incorporated with the prudent man rule to determine hole location.

Joe Hancock

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2005, 01:24:00 PM »
As to hole location, there should be no appreciable change in slope within three feet of the hole, and the slope and green speed should be incorporated with the prudent man rule to determine hole location.

Pat,

Is that you're own very selfish, biased evaluation, or is that some regurgitated dogma from the USGA, PGA Tour or other governing body? ;D

Not that I disagree, mind you.

Joe
" What the hell is the point of architecture and excellence in design if a "clever" set up trumps it all?" Peter Pallotta, June 21, 2016

"People aren't picking a side of the fairway off a tee because of a randomly internally contoured green ."  jeffwarne, February 24, 2017

Patrick_Mucci

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2005, 01:34:44 PM »
Joe,

It seemed reasonable to me

A_Clay_Man

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #5 on: October 09, 2005, 01:46:31 PM »
Tim, You have nailed it. We took a concensus several years ago and it was pretty much determined that, If there is ever a justified cry of unfair, it is on the 14th hole at Pebble Beach, when the pin is on the right, in the middle, and greens speeds are over 8.5. ;D

The irony is, wherever you do putt from, on that hole, with those circumstances, it is one of the most creatively challenged shots, and an absolute blast, to boot.


cary lichtenstein

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2005, 01:52:39 PM »
We used to have a "tough course day" at our club ever year and it was always fun, until I played Butler National on their tough course day, and no single digit broke 100

It was fun, totally unfair, and once was more than enough.
6 putting ;D
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

BCrosby

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2005, 02:28:33 PM »
To echo Forrest, I have no idea what "unfair" means when used to describe a golf hole.

There are difficult holes, there are easy holes, there a dull holes, but there are no unfair holes.

There is a philosophical sin called "category confusion".  There is also the literary sin of anthropomorphism.

Calling a hole fair or unfair commits both sins. Golf holes don't do fair. Any more than they do honest, or loving or thoughtful or any number of things that only humans do.

Bob
« Last Edit: October 12, 2005, 08:24:02 AM by BCrosby »

Matt_Ward

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2005, 04:05:18 PM »
Tim:

I use a very straightforward test -- can a shot achieve success when played with the highest level of execution? If not then something is indeed wrong with the design.

Golf is a game and a game must have some sort of reward / penalty included and for it be applied in some sort of consistent fashion -- realizing that nothing is 100% certain nor should it be.

Golf courses are designed to differentiate between the good, the so-so and the bad in terms of shotmaking. Courses that are set-up / created to only penalize no matter how well played are simply poor designs and ones I try to avoid.

Dan King

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2005, 04:51:44 PM »
Matt Ward writes:
Golf courses are designed to differentiate between the good, the so-so and the bad in terms of shotmaking.

What could ever be more boring.

Golf should remain an outdoor game with all the potential ugliness that goes with playing out-of-doors. Every so often the good shot should be punished and the bad shot rewarded. Golf should test much more than shotmaking, it should also test the golfers mettle.

Punish the good shot too often and I can understand a goofy golf complaint, but it should do it every so often.

Some unfairness should always be part of golf. Unfairness shouldn't necessarily be built into courses, but we don't need to try to eliminate it either.

Dan King
Quote
Golf is not a fair game, so why build a course fair?
 --Pete Dye

Matt_Ward

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2005, 04:56:03 PM »
You're so right Dan -- have no benchmark for shotmaking -- simply have nothing at all but complete randomness.

Wow -- I can't wait to play those courses. ::)

P.S. I never said unfairness is not part of the game -- when the design is dominated by such an aspect you don't have golf you have goof ball. Maybe you like such places -- please knock yourself out and play them.

I never opined it should be eliminated -- it should be not the sole and primary ingredient though.

George Pazin

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2005, 05:33:51 PM »
I use a very straightforward test -- can a shot achieve success when played with the highest level of execution? If not then something is indeed wrong with the design.

Hi Matt -

This sounds like a pretty high bar to me.

Wouldn't the highest level of execution be pretty much the absolute perfect shot for whatever is asked? In other words, a hole in one on a par 3, a "dead perfect middle of the fairway, wouldn't matter if the fairway were 5 yards wide" kind of drive, a holed out approach, etc.?

Tour pros only hit 60% of fairways and greens.

My standard is something more along the lines of, if you fail to execute, do you have a feasible recovery shot? It can be really difficult, but it should be something other than a penalty drop or a reload on the previous shot, in the vast majority of instances.

(Not trying to be mean, just looking to flesh out your "level of highest execution" statement.... :))

My only idea of unfair would be virtually impossible, something like a hole cut on a slope where it is literally impossible to stop the ball near the hole, the only "option" is to hole it. Or maybe a forced carry off the tee with no option to play shorter than 250 yards, even with a forward tee. I realize these are extremes that are (hopefully) never encountered, so I don't think there is really "unfair" on a golf course.

As difficult as I find desert courses, I don't think they're unfair, just not a whole lotta fun.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

JWL

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #12 on: October 11, 2005, 07:08:54 PM »
Just to throw my $.02 in on this discussion, I would have to say that there is a such thing as an unfair hole from a player's perspective.   I would define such as a hole or a shot on a hole, that, regardless of the type of shot hit, the results were all the same.   What comes to mind is the 7th at Shinny in the Open.   I watched David Toms in the practice round hit what looked to be a beautiful 8 iron right at the flag, and while in flight he began waving at the ball.   I didn't know what he was doing, but I soon found out that it didn't matter the quality of the shot, all the balls were going to wind up over the back of the green.   Also, I recall playing at Olympic in the US Amateur in 1981 and also walking inside the ropes in a practice round in the last Open held there and two holes played the same.   The 4th and 17th both had such pitched fairways from left to right, that regardless of the shot played off the tee, even a duck hook, all the balls ultimately found their way to the right rough.   In both of these cases, it didn't matter what the quality of the shot was, the results were going to be very close to the same.   I do not think that is fair or good design.   Design like that takes the objective fun out of the game, and too much of that just makes golf less fun, imho.   I think all golfers would like to be rewarded for playing a quality shot, and not have the results be the same as a poor shot.   Even if everyone has the same available recovery.   There is a difference between unfair and quirky.   Quirky, to me, means that the best shot is not always the most obvious and it may take playing that hole or course several times to learn about how to best  play certain shots.   But quirky does not mean that the shot is impossible, just different than most others.   I think some quirky is good in a course, just to keep everything interesting.

Andy Troeger

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #13 on: October 11, 2005, 07:38:30 PM »
Matt Ward writes:
Golf courses are designed to differentiate between the good, the so-so and the bad in terms of shotmaking.

Gotta go with Matt on this one. If I'm understanding his point, it is that a well executed golf shot should (almost always) have a good result. What the heck is the point of practicing and trying to hit good golf shots otherwise? Certainly sometimes well struck shots don't end up in good places due to poor distance, miscalculation of wind/weather conditions, etc, but IMO when the course adds to this then to me its not good design. It's one thing to be hard, there's nothing wrong with forcing a shot to be really well executed to get the desired result, but there has to be SOME chance of good result to make it worthwhile.

JWL makes the point well too...if multiple shots end up in the same place regardless of execution, that doesn't put any premium on hitting good shots.

Matt_Ward

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #14 on: October 11, 2005, 08:22:46 PM »
George:

Allow me to further clarify -- the purpose of quality architecture is to differentiate shots played by a golfer. No doubt a well designed course will reward / penalize "proportionally" too. That means that you don't have to hit the A#1 shot in order to get back a positive situation.

Proportionality is in so many ways the separation point between good and exceptional design with no doubt that nothing is 100% guaranteed since the vagaries of the game are present and should be there. Just so long as the element of luck is not the dominant strain in any hole or course.

Proportionality provides for greater detail thus are rewarded / penalized proportionate to the manner by which they are executed.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #15 on: October 11, 2005, 09:00:46 PM »
This has the makings for one of the greatest threads ever. You go Boys.


Andy Troeger

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #16 on: October 11, 2005, 09:26:26 PM »
DMoriarty
I think you're right, golf courses are designed for the enjoyment of the golfers. So which is more fun, hitting a good iron shot that ends up on the green...or bounces over? How about that drive down the middle that stays there...or bounces straight right into a crummy lie in the rough?

I'll give you that overcoming a bad bounce is rewarding...but considering most golfers don't overcome most bad bounces, that argument only goes so far. Hitting a good shot that ends up in a good position never gets old, especially for those of us who can't hit them often enough.

JESII

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #17 on: October 11, 2005, 09:44:34 PM »
What is an unfair golf hole?

Like that guy said when asked to describe pornography...."I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it".

Dan Kelly

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #18 on: October 11, 2005, 10:03:57 PM »
What is an unfair golf hole?

Like that guy said when asked to describe pornography...."I can't describe it, but I know it when I see it".

It was Mr. Justice Potter Stewart, describing obscenity.

Knowing that qualifies me for the Supreme Court!
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

JESII

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #19 on: October 11, 2005, 10:11:40 PM »
Perfect.

A similar drop in qualifications from the last appointment to the current nomination might just get me in the running, but you'll be over-qualified for sure. Your answer proves it.
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 10:13:50 PM by JES II »

Andy Troeger

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #20 on: October 11, 2005, 10:12:56 PM »
David,
  I think we probably agree on this more than you think, but let me give you a situation that I considered "unfair." I was playing with a group at a local course that has an island green hole. Its a 300 yard par 4, and the green is very small and very firm. All of us successfully laid up to 100 yards to give ourselves a full sand wedge. We had two well struck shots hit near the front of the green and bounce into the water long. I overcompensated and hit a lousy shot that didn't get there and went in the front hazard. We never did get a ball on that stupid green from there and we tried a few extra shots. The group behind did the same thing. To me unfair, and about the worst hole I've ever seen.
  Its a different situation if you hit the shot a little thin, or if you know the greens are firm and fly it to the hole anyway, or try to go at a flag tucked over a bunker with your 2 iron (etc, etc). However, if you both physically and mentally execute, there should be a reward for that, if not all the time, at least as close to it as possible. Otherwise, what's the point of executing.
  The best golf courses certianly make you think about what shot to hit before you have to execute it. That's pretty obvious. If you can't get the mental part right before you hit the shot, you deserve to end up in whatever spot you hit it, even if you do physically execute.

Dan Kelly

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #21 on: October 11, 2005, 10:17:44 PM »
David,
  I think we probably agree on this more than you think, but let me give you a situation that I considered "unfair." I was playing with a group at a local course that has an island green hole. Its a 300 yard par 4, and the green is very small and very firm. All of us successfully laid up to 100 yards to give ourselves a full sand wedge. We had two well struck shots hit near the front of the green and bounce into the water long. I overcompensated and hit a lousy shot that didn't get there and went in the front hazard. We never did get a ball on that stupid green from there and we tried a few extra shots. The group behind did the same thing. To me unfair, and about the worst hole I've ever seen.
 

Could this have been unfairness in maintenance, not design?
« Last Edit: October 11, 2005, 10:18:16 PM by Dan Kelly »
"There's no money in doing less." -- Joe Hancock, 11/25/2010
"Rankings are silly and subjective..." -- Tom Doak, 3/12/2016

Andy Troeger

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #22 on: October 11, 2005, 10:30:22 PM »
Probably a combination of the two. This "island" green is literally no more than maybe 15-20 yards deep at this spot, and its crowned so it plays even smaller. Add in that they haven't gotten the concept of watering to make the green more receptive and you have a laughable situation.

Doug Siebert

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Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #23 on: October 11, 2005, 11:06:35 PM »
There's no such thing as unfairness in design, just unfairness in preparation.  A hole cut where you get into an "infinite putting" situation is unfair, but that's not the designer's fault, its the greenskeeper's fault (or mother nature or the greens committee who insisted that all greens must stimp at 11.5 and you have to use that nasty back left position for the club championship)

I agree with those who say that really nasty stuff bordering on unfair is probably about as fun as it gets.  I'd love to play something like 04's Shinny even though I probably couldn't break 100, because I'd have to think about every shot and use every scrap of skill to imagine and visualize shots to get around the place.  I can't even describe how much more fun I'd find shooting a 101 there versus a career round of 66 on an easy course that was wide open enough for my driver and I just happened to have a super hot day with the wedge and the putter.
My hovercraft is full of eels.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Unfairness in design
« Reply #24 on: October 12, 2005, 12:24:07 AM »
David, You really need to get out of the office more and learn to appreciate the smooth lines, and lasered surfaces of a D-9. You might learn to expand your horizons on what constutues proportionality. (I wonder if thats like wessonality?)

George, Nice catch. The exact thought was mine.

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