Olympic: contender for "two best short par 4's" award?

[Jim Nugent]

I have not played many of the world's top courses.  From what I have seen, though, Olympic's set of two short par 4's ranks with the best.    

At 288 yards, on paper 7 should be easily driven.  But it rarely is.  The hole is all uphill.  The narrow 3 tiered green slopes back to front.  Any ball above the cup is a tough two-putt: putts crossing all three tiers are a real adventure.  For me, this is a more interesting, challenging hole than Riviera's 10th.    

In the 1993 and 1994 Tour Championships at Olympic, I saw few birdies at 7.  Plenty of bogeys.  Most laid up: of those who didn't, more than one drive ended up in the grove of trees to the right.  Jail.  

18 supplies great drama.  Miss the fairway and par is a struggle:  Palmer's 2nd shot on the 72nd hole in 1966 is one of the great pressure shots I've ever seen.  The green is hard to putt, even without tricking it up like they did in 1998.  

Few courses boast even one short par four as good as these.  Olympic has two.  One of my favorite things, about one of my favorite courses.  
   

[Mark_F]

The best short par fours are in Australia.
Specifically, Victoria.
Specifically, Melbourne -inc. Mornington Peninsula.

Maybe Philadelphia and London have us for threes, but not short fours.

Especially amazing given that, aside from RM and Vic (and M. Pen) the land isn't that fantastic.

[Jim Nugent]

The best short par fours are in Australia.
Specifically, Victoria.
Specifically, Melbourne -inc. Mornington Peninsula.

Maybe Philadelphia and London have us for threes, but not short fours.

Especially amazing given that, aside from RM and Vic (and M. Pen) the land isn't that fantastic.

Mark, any pictures or descriptions of what makes them good?

[PThomas]

7 green there definitely has some wild breaks to it!

[Mike_Golden]

It would be truly hard to top NGLA's opening two holes as the two best short par 4's in at least the U.S.

Of course, some would say that Cypress Point has two in the same stratosphere-#9 and #16

And the Jersey Golfer could find at least one course that has 2 really interesting 400 yard par 4's that would be contenders, particularly if the slope was over 145 and the back tee distance over 7500 yards.  I'm sure it even has a list of them, probably called something like 'Top 18 short Par 4's over 380 yards built after 1995'

[wsmorrison]

The Philadelphia district has an amazing collection of par 3s somewhat do to Flynn's predilection for designing outstanding par 3s.  But the short par 4s (and long par 4s and all sorts of par 5s as well) in the district merit consideration as well.

Merion's collection of short par 4s is hard to top anywhere:  1,7,8,10 and 11.  Can they be beat?

Pine Valley's short par 4s:  2,8,12 and 17.  These 4 the equal of Merion's 5 short par 4s?  Maybe.

Other Philadelphia courses to consider:

Merion West:  1,7,8,10,12,13 and 18
Rolling Green:  4,5,12 and 15
Philadelphia Country:  1,2 13 and16
Lehigh Country Club:  2,4,14 and 15
Lancaster Country Club:  2 and 16
Huntingdon Valley: 1(plays short),4 and 11
Atlantic City Country Club:  2,3 and Doak's 14th
French Creek:  1,7 and 14
Manufacturers:  1 and 17
LuLu:  2,9,11,14 and 16
Philadelphia Cricket Club:  5 and 6
Bidermann:  A lot of short par 4s, maybe not great but solid including 1,5,7,9,13,17
Gulph Mills:  5,8,9,11 and 15
Whitemarsh Valley:  not great but solid including 1,10 and 14

[BCrosby]

Put me down as a no vote. The 7th is a very good hole. I'm not sure the 18th at the big O is world class.

In addition to the Morrison compendium, I would add:

ANGC - 3 and 14
TCC - 5 and 7
Cuscowilla - 5 and 11
TOC - 2, 12, 16


Bob

[ForkaB]

Sort of agree with Bob re: OC.  I think 7 is world class, but 18 pretty one-dimensional--a good finisher, though, much like tghe 18th at TOC.  And Bob, if you think TOC #2 is "short", take a look at the new tee which is set at the back end of the Ladies Putting Green (Himalayas).  It's 460 or so from there and the tee shot over the heads of grannies and cute litle 6-year old girls must be intreesting if not intimidating!

[BCrosby]

Rich -

It's 460 now? Then I stand corrected. Take 2 at TOC off my list. (Though I suspect the big boys, even at that length, approach it with PW's.)

Bob

[Jim Nugent]

Put me down as a no vote. The 7th is a very good hole. I'm not sure the 18th at the big O is world class.

In addition to the Morrison compendium, I would add:

ANGC - 3 and 14
TCC - 5 and 7
Cuscowilla - 5 and 11
TOC - 2, 12, 16


Bob

Doesn't ANGC 14 weigh in at around 440 now?  

[ForkaB]

Bob

I just checked it out and #2 is only 453.  #16 is now 423, but I guess that is short in this day and age.......

[BCrosby]

Yes, at some point we need to redefine what a "short" par 4 means.  

My first guess would be anything under 440. Even the Fred Funks back off PW's to par 4's at that length.

Bob

[JohnV]

Oakmont is a definite contender for short par 4s.  There are 5 par 4s under 400 yards.

2 - 341
5 - 383
11 - 382
14 - 360
17 - 315

I think that 14 is the only one that might not rank near the top and its green is superb.

It is somewhat amazing that a course that is 7229 yards has 5 par 4s that short and only 3 par 5s, one of which is played as a 4 in majors.

[JNC Lyon]

TCC - 5 and 7

     Are you talking about The Country Club, In Brookline? If so, do you mean 4 and 6? I would actually take out 6 from those two and add 10. It is one of the holes which is taken out of the course for the Open, but its wickedly contoured fairway and and large bunker and mound fronting the green, not to mention the ferocity of the greensite itself, make it one of my favorite short fours.

     The 10th is much more demanding than the sixth, and is even short, and thus more tempting. This, along with No. 4, makes for a great duo of short fours at The Country Club.

[John Kirk]

Crystal Downs has nice short par 4s, numbers 5, 7, 15, and 17, though 17 has no landing area for the tee shot.

For modern courses, Kinloch near Richmond, VA has two nice ones, 4 and 15.  Neither is spectacular, simple holes with clear options.

I think courses built in the last 10 years now feature more short par 4s.  It's a nice trend.

[wsmorrison]

In considering the short par 4s at the Country Club in Brookline, I would cite holes 4,6,8,10 and 17 on the original course although 4 is a Flynn redesign, 6 and 17 greens and bunkers were revised by Flynn.  The 17th green was subsequently redesigned by Rees Jones.  The Primrose holes 1,3,5 and 7 are nice short par 4s.

The other Country Club by Flynn, this one in Pepper Pike Ohio has some really fine short par 4s including 1,3,4 and particularly 17.

[David_Tepper]

Jim Nugent -

Unfortunately, after the 1999 US Open at OC Lake, the club was "persuaded" to take some of the slope out of the 18th green. While this will provide more functional pin positions for future USGA events, the challenge/fun of the 18th green has been minimized greatly for daily member play.

During one of the Tour Championships held at the OC Lake in the early 1990's, I saw Larry Mize drive the 7th green. His ball was on the front level and the pin was on the back level. He 4-putted the green for bogey!

As a spectator, #7 is my favorite hole on the course.

DT      

[michael_j_fay]

Crystal Downs and Merion vie for the title in my opinion.

5,6,7 at Crystal Downs for three in a row. 7,8, 10 and 11 at Merion for four of five.

[David_Elvins]

The best short par fours are in Australia.
Specifically, Victoria.
Specifically, Melbourne -inc. Mornington Peninsula.

Maybe Philadelphia and London have us for threes, but not short fours.

Especially amazing given that, aside from RM and Vic (and M. Pen) the land isn't that fantastic.

Mark, any pictures or descriptions of what makes them good?

Jim,

I am not going to make as concrete a statement as Mark but there is a tradition of short Par 4s (often drivable) in southern Australia.  Royal Melbourne in particular has set a great example with holes such as 3 West, 10 West and 1 East.  

What really sticks out in my mind though are the short fours on some of the newer courses, in particular Barnbougle Dunes and St Andrews Beach (designed by Doak/Clyton).

At Barnbougle Dunes there are two drivable Par 4s under 300 yards and two 360 yard Par 4.  All are fantastic and unique golf holes (other than perhaps the 12th which I just think is very good but lacking in complexity or originality compared to the others I mention).  My favorites are the 4th and the 15th. The 4th  features an elevated tee sitting above a 70 metre wide fairway with a massive blowout bunker atleast 25 feet high in a direct line to a green sitting up and inbetween large dunes. The 15th is a 360 yard hole that is almost drivable down wind and a drive and a long iron into the wind.  In either conditions, and in any in between, the hole is great and I would not imagine that there were too many holes around that offerred this kind of versatility.  THe main feature of the hole is a centreline drive bunker that sits in a ridge.  Take the narrow gap between the bunker and the sand dunes that lead down to an estuary on the right and you are rewarded with a view of the green.  Take the safe option to the left of the bunker and you are faced with a longer blind shot.  My favorite hole in the world at the moment.

At St Andrews Beach, the variety is even greater. You can see some photos in Mark's review in "My home Course".  The 2nd and the 14th are really good short drivable par 4s, the 2nd in particular is spectacular.  But it is the run of holes from 7-9 that has really amazed me.  All three are short Par 4s.  Not spectacularly short as in drivable, just drive and pitch holes measure between 350 and 380 yards.  I would imagine that a driver-wedge hole is one of the most dificult holes to build succesfully.  To build three of them in a row of high quality with such variety and interesting challenges is something that I find really impressive.

[Mark_F]

Jim,

One day I would like to get around to doing a few pics of the various Sandbelt holes.  One day...

Many of them, in this day and age, leave you with an awkward length in-between type of shot if you hit a reasonable drive or three wood eg. 3 KH, 15Vic, 3,4,7 and 13 Woodlands, 14 Commonowealth - and this indecision can lead to all sorts of muffled shots.  At least, it does in my case...

The three in a row David talks about at St Andrews Beach all have totally different fairway topography, and three totally different greens - one two-tiered, one bunkerless and subtle in the extreme, one a tiny domed crown type.

Haven't played it yet, and not sure whether it entirely falls into the category of short, but the 11th at The National's Greg Norman course - of which plenty of photo's abound - just looks gob smackingly spectacular. And it has another old fashioned type of feature - a punchbowl green.

In short, I guess they are the type of holes where shots can leak away through no real error, leaving that comforting birdie or par for another hole.

[rjsimper]

Not going to win any national awards, or likely not even going to be known or played by many/any of you, but I'm going to give a nod to Palos Verdes G.C. ...just south of LA and not far from Trump Trails.

The 6th and 12th, for a pair of par 4s that collectively do not exceed 600 yards in total yardage, are excellent holes.

The 6th, at 330 yards, calls for a driver or 3w into a wide fairway pinched 30 yards in the air by Eucalyptus trees.  Balls land into a steep grade, so your tee ball is 100% carry.  The second shot is STRAIGHT uphill to a beautiful 40 yard deep 2-tiered green, with a front portion that is protected by bunkers short and left (and a false front) and a back portion that plays deceptively long to reach.

The 12th, at 260 yards (depending on how you measure), would seem to be a short poke for even an average hitter to give the green a go.  What's not shown on the card is an uphill carry over an enormous barranca (nearly identical to, though more uphill and perhaps 30 yards longer than the 10th at Bel-Air)  The tiny fairway bends right and button-hooks around a grove of trees, and the green is pushed up probably 5 feet from fairway level, surrounded on all sides by thick rough and bunkers, and it's the smallest green on the course (unless you count the alternate green on 3)  - it's tough to hold with a LW even.  It's 260 yards, I carry the ball 275, and I've NEVER hit the green.  

The only downside to this hole that I can see is that there really isn't anything that makes you think about driving the green...at least for someone who has played the course.  A first-timer might see the yardage and lick his chops, but I've never tried to go for the green when it mattered.


So, if anyone has played these holes, and played them in E for your round, then you've accomplished something.  I've played them in -2 for a round, and I've played them in +5.

So while they aren't the best in the world, I tip my hat to them and challenge another course to show me 2 par 4s whose total yardage does not exceed 600 that are better than these.

Thanks Billy Bell!

[wsmorrison]

"5,6,7 at Crystal Downs for three in a row. 7,8, 10 and 11 at Merion for four of five."

Michael,

Let's not forget Merion's first at only 362 from the tips.  It is one of the great short par 4s in all of golf.  Its proximity to the patio dining area heightens the experience.

[michael_j_fay]

Wayne:

I agree. Nothing like standing on the tee with the members eating their lunch and the player eating his liver!

[Wayne Freeman]

I just completed a short trip to Ohio-  I'm surprised no one mentioned some great short par 4's at 2 of the U.S Open venues-  Canterbury has two fantastic ones on the back side-  the 10th apparently was described by Johnny Miller as the best short par 4 in tournament golf. And the 15th is awesome. I also thought that 10 and 18 at Inverness were very good.
   And if memory serves me,  doesn't Myopia Hunt rank right up there?

[DTaylor18]

Wayne, i think you are right on all three counts.  Every hole you mentioned is a fun and hole, as well as the courses.  I especially enjoyed the two you mentioned at Inverness.  I also love how #1 and #10 share the same tee box and are separated by a huge bunker area.  15th at Canterbury may be the toughest of the group.  Myopia has soem great short 4's, starting with #1, right off the bat.  Myopia has a bunch of holes of varying lengths that you won't see at many other places.  

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