[THuckaby2]

David:

Well reasoned post.

But what's wrong with Harding?

Nothing besides the fact they took a course that was affordable for all and made it somewhat affordable for a few, unaffordable for most, and beloved by none.  Of course it was parently awful before and is much much better now.

I don't need to see it in person this week to know that.  But anyway the point there is that the way the course is this week is about as representative of how it is year round for us mortals as I am representative of playing the same game as John Daly.  Of course you know this.

In any case, I guess I just can't help think what might have been.  And yes, those are the saddest words.

But Tom Jefferson's words weigh heavily on me though... what's there is indeed pretty darn good.  And that ought to be enough.

So cheer on, my friend.  I shall stay silent on the sidelines from now on.  The last thing I want to do is rain on a parade.  




 

[Joel_Stewart]

ps to Les - thanks for the thoughts re Lincoln and Sharp - oh yes, Lincoln sure could use some TLC... it just would really bum me out if the quirk was removed.  Quirk is that place's reason for existence.

The thoughts on Lincoln and Sharp Park are pure specualtion, wishful thinking and have no merit.   There is no money, no plan and no one wants to deal with the city and the years or wrangling to get these jobs moving especially in a declining economy and with golf rounds declining.  Furthermore the city would require cheap rounds for the locals as well as payback for any lost income to the city.  

I wish they would hire Doak and redo Sharp Park.  Harding would then be the 2nd best muni in the city.

[peter_p]

I always considered Harding's best defence a baton to the knees of the favorite, or at least a hubcap throw.

[A_Clay_Man]

Some holes could be improved strategically by mowing lines,

Les- Could you expound on this? Please?

Do you mean creating more bottlenecks, with rough?

If so, I must disagree with you just on personal preference, but, there was a time on the ol' GCA when trees and rough (ponds too) were considered weak design elements.

[Brent Hutto]

In my previous remarks I guess I should have made my subtext more specific. Adam has now touched on it...

This week's event at Harding Park is a perfect reminder of the obscurity of the tastes we GCAers have developed compared to current norms. Let's examine the stuff that was done to Harding Park to bring it from "perfectly awful" to the point where Tour players love having an event there and a wide range of golfer are willing to play CCFAD prices to play it. Basically, it's a short list of "improvements" that the prevailing wisdom on this forum would suggest are not worthwhile features.

So my question becomes this. Imagine two golf course with equally stirring views of a large body of water, equally well landscaped and maintained, both in locations which would be considered desirable destinations and both associated with brand-name architects. One of them is a challenging course in the Harding Park mode completely with narrow bottlenecks and punitive rough. The other is one that every active participant in the GCA forum would agree is an exemplar of strategic, classic golf principles.

How attractive would the Tour-style course and the GCA-style course be to the following types of players:

1) Tiger Woods and David Toms
2) A foursome of middle-aged 5-10 handicappers on their yearly golf vacation
3) The raters who make magazine lists
4) A twosome consisting of Tom Huckaby and Tom Paul
5) A corporate outing of a dozen executives of mixed ability in town for a business meeting

And a final question. Which of these two would command bigger greens fees, all else (location, etc.) being equal?

[David_Tepper]

Les Clayton -

Congratulations and thanks for a job VERY WELL DONE!!!

DT

[John Kirk]

This is a terrific pro tournament, maybe the best this year, with a great leader board, and loud and appreciative fans.  Add in San Francisco's cool and dry fall weather, and Harding Park looks like it will host another tourney soon.

Daly just pulled out driver on the drivable 16th, the second playoff hole.  Oops, he's in trouble.  Perhaps a little impatience showing.  Never mind...he just hit it to 12 feet.

Roger Clemens is pinch hitting for the Astros in the bottom of the 15th.  Lays down a perfect sac bunt.

Add in the usual Sunday fall football...geez, this is the best TV sports day this year!  I'm riveted, with channel changer at the ready.

I sure like the short green to tee walks at Harding.

[A_Clay_Man]

Having all the recent back and forths on the usga, I must admit, that was a great tournament. At least from what I could tell on the television.

[TEPaul]

It sure is amazing the variety of ways Tiger Woods wins golf tournaments---either electrifying play on his part at just the right moment or somehow putting some odd Kibosh on his opponent. Daly didn't have any more than about a 15 foot birdie putt to win and he 3-putts to lose it right there?? Are you kidding me?

Fascinating tournament and golf course though. Certainly not the standard weekly tour stop type golf course.

[Mike Benham]

I wish they would hire Doak and redo Sharp Park.  Harding would then be the 2nd best muni in the city.

But Sharp isn't even in the city ...

[Wayne_Freedman]

It was a dramatic finish, and the course played a role in that.
What else could anyone ask?

[David_Tepper]

TEPaul -

As the saying goes, "the harder he works on his game, the luckier he seems to get!"

It is hard it imagine there has ever been a golfer with a greater command of both the physical and mental aspects of competitive golf than Tiger. That, coupled with his desire, is a very powerful package.

DT    

[Bill_McBride]

Can any of the old Harding Park habitues tell me where the new back tee is?  The hole played about 425 from the tips in the old days; now it's 43 yards longer and I'm trying to figure out how!

[David_Tepper]

Bill -

Which hole are you asking about?

I am guessing you are asking about #18. Much of the extra length came from them moving the #18 green back onto where the practice putting green was that sat behind the old #18 green.

DT

[Joel_Stewart]

Can any of the old Harding Park habitues tell me where the new back tee is?  The hole played about 425 from the tips in the old days; now it's 43 yards longer and I'm trying to figure out how!

I assume you mean the 18th hole.   The new tee is by the entrance gate.  If you looked at the TV, they had corporate boxes covering the regular tee.  The hole looked silly on TV with the rough coming that far out from the left side.

[Bill_McBride]

Right, Joel, the 18th.  It's really hard for me to visualize the hole playing from that tee; the carry over the trees is huge but playing safely to the right makes the hole play about 525!    It makes sense that Tiger and Daly played, who else could have hit those last two tee balls?! JD missed two 2' putts in the last four holes or he would have won an undoubtedly popular victory.

[David_Tepper]

Another reason this was a great event - the top 14 finishers came from 11 different countries!

[Joel_Stewart]

Right, Joel, the 18th.  It's really hard for me to visualize the hole playing from that tee; the carry over the trees is huge but playing safely to the right makes the hole play about 525!    

I've played it a few times from that tee and when I kill it I still have 5 or 6 iron in.  Only a few of those guys could take the line over the trees and carry it off.  Its a very awkward hole and during normal play they have god awful containment mounding all along the right side of the fairway.  The great weather, great crowds and John Daly kind of covered up the warts of Harding.  

[Wayne_Freedman]

They also pushed back the tees on the 4th, forcing a change of routing for,  I believe, the 12th.

I watched several hitters in the practice rounds.
For most of them, the 4th became a 3 shot par 5.
It didn't used to be that way.
 

[David_Tepper]

Wayne -

I believe you are thinking of the green on #13, which is the green site that was moved the most (back and to the left about 25-30 yards) when the course was redone. Moving the 13th green opened up space to move the tee back on #4, the par-5.

You are right about #4 playing as a 3-shot hole. I don't think there were very many eagle putts during the tournament.

DT    

[Wayne_Freedman]

Yes, 13 is correct.

Harding often plays longer than it looks due to the heavy air. We had a mic on Vaughn Taylor during a practice round,
and there were several occasions when he would hit a shot and mutter,"I knew it wouldn't get there."

That said, the fairways were very firm this past week. And the rough...penal.

Wish I could post a couple of aerial photos we took of Harding last week.
We spent two hours running the holes, and there is a particularly nice pic of #4.

[David_Tepper]

Art Spander, telling it like it is:

www.golfobserver.com/features/spander/harding_101105.html

[David_Tepper]

Jeez, it looks like the great weekend at Harding even warmed the cockles of Geoff Shackelford's heart a little bit:

www.golfobserver.com/features/geoff/munis_101105.html

[THuckaby2]

David:

Interesting.  You read that as Geoff warming to the course?  I sure don't.  I guess one reads what he wants to read.

 

[Sean Leary]

Anyone know how difficult it is to walk on as a single on a weekend morning at Harding?  I am heading into SF next weekend, am playing SFGC on Friday and would like to play Sat/Sunday morning if I can.

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