[David_Tepper]

Mike B. -

It is too bad the scheduling of tournament play is a slave to the East Coast TV market. It looks like all the players will be off the course well before 4:00pm each day, which is just about when the wind off the ocean starts to pick up.

I would love to see the last few groups on Sunday hit the 14th tee around 3:30-4:00pm, when the wind is kicking up and the temperature starts to drop 15-20 degrees. Playing #14-#17 into that wind and #18 downwind would make for an interesting finish.

I hope the weather gets at least a little bit gnarly at some point over the next few days.

DT  

[THuckaby2]

Les - 276 to the base of the trees, right?  And those trees are very tall, not to mention being above the tee 30 feet as you say... I'm no mathemetician but doesn't that equate to 330 or so in effectively required carry?

How's the rough on 9?  I heard it was VERY VERY dense.  That would explain it playing tough.  But is is a par 4 for these fellows, after all... They seem to be eating it up v. par if one calls it a par five as it is for us mortals.

I know you have bias for Harding - you ought to!  And good on you for that.  It's also quite uncomfortable for me to play the critic, as the pollyana is usually my role.

I just for whatever reason can't get behind Harding.  I guess my bias is $90+ fees for non-SF residents.  I have to admit it doesn't give me tingles of love for the place.

 

[les_claytor]

Tom,

I wouldn't be running out to pay $90 either, but I did pay $95 to play the old course at Half Moon Bay circa '95.  My how the golf market has changed!  I wish they had a SF Bay rate, but not my deal.......

I've only actually played the new Harding twice, on opening day and once this summer.  I'm usually in and out quickly, and sometimes I just play the Flemming before the red eye.

The course does have a very clean look.  I was actually somewhat surprised before opening how pristine it looked, but some of it's mow it all maintenance and some of it's just the 90 Rye / 10 Blue fairways and primary rough.  I'm pleased that we did keep the Harding Park in the course, for good and bad.

It's fascinating to watch the SCRATCH PLAYERS go around the course.  I couldn't go out for the practice rounds bcs my wife's expecting, but it's fun to watch.

[Mark_Rowlinson]

David Tepper very kindly took my son and me on a tour of a host of SF courses when we were in the area a few years ago.  What a variety of style and nature of courses almost next door to each other!  From what I saw there is no comparison to be made.  Each stands on its own legs, but I do value my round at Olympic Lake as one of the highlights of my very limited American golf experience.   Come on, I missed only one fairway - if you only drive 200 yards maximum you can hardly miss, and they had already pruned the trees.  The down side was that almost no green on a par 4 was in range of two of my shots....

[THuckaby2]

Les - it's a silly complaint, admittedly.  It's just that yes, the course is WAY better than before... But before it was cheap.  But then again one got what one paid for.    

I do understand the realities though.  The deal was going to be done as it was with connection to PGA Tour - and thus high prices passed on to guys like me - or it wasn't going to happen at all.

It just doesn't give me the warm fuzzies, that's all... and the problem is I'm not sure who it DOES give such to!  The old regulars hate it because they can't get their tee-times and prices have gone up for them also... Non-SF Bay area curmudgeons like me complain about the price, figuring we have way too many overpriced courses as it is... I guess the only contingent that is geared to love Harding is SF residents who didn't know much about it before and don't care that much about price.  They do get a decent deal.  But how man of them exist?

Oh well.  In the end it is a very nice golf course, and it will show well this week for sure.  More tourists will play it, because what the hell, $90 is right in line with a lot of other courses around here.

And yes it is fun to watch the big boys.

So why I am not cheering?  I hate being this way.  
 

[les_claytor]

Tom,

I hear you on the operational issues.  That's why we're glad Kemper Golf has that baby.  They do a good job, but it's a tender subject.

The $16 M they throw around is a project cost incl. GC, clubhouse, maintenance, some infrastructure, etc.  I'm not sure what the golf course finished up at, but it wasn't cheap with kikuya eradication and all.  Harding was sooo flat, 1% overall pitch to the Old Course, that it was really tricky to drain.

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the other SF munis.  Lincoln and Sharp are next on the radar.  I would like to see the new Paspalum Supreme on both.  I know Tom Doak's got his radar up on Sharp.  Both of them have fascinating potential, in very different ways.  Lincoln perhaps typifies San Francisco the best in it's quirkiness.  I've got recomendations, but I'm sure they would fall short of most peoples expectations.  Keep it pure!

[THuckaby2]

Whoo boy.... the mind reels at what could be done at each of Sharp and Lincoln.  Sharp sure has the MacKenzie model to follow - one need only read Daniel Wexler's Missing Links and try to approximate the plan there.  That would be something.  Lincoln... gosh that's a tougher call.  To me it is meant to be what it is now - the quirkiest of quirk, funkiest of funk.  I love it how it is.  I guess better conditions would be nice, but man any messing with the course too much is gonna get a LOT of comment.. backlash....

It will be very interesting to follow.

 

[David_Tepper]

Meanwhile, back to the tournament!

Throw out Monty's hot round and its looks like Harding acquitted itself reasonably well. Almost half the field is over par under what must have been near perfect conditions, weather-wise.

The wind has picked up and the fog is now rolling in. The boys may be in for a surprise when they tee off Friday morning.

It would be GREAT to see Lincoln and Sharp undergo similar transformations. The sooner the better, in my opinion.  

[THuckaby2]

I'm not sure if it's a good thing or not for high scores to be achieved this week at Harding.  If a winning score of single digits under is achieved, and lots of four round totals are over par, what does this prove other than brutal high rough and ridiculous back tees are the coin of the realm?

I rather wish they'd tear it up... get to -28... hell it's a pipedream any USGA events are gonna be held there anyway.... as much as I love Sandy Tatum and wish for his sake he gets his dream....

As for Sharp and Lincoln, well... re-do them for condition improvement, and keep the fees reasonable, and keep the quirk in Lincoln, and I am all for it.  Create two more $100 green fee tourist-only monsters and I don't see how that helps any of us.  Is there no room in golf for decent, decently-priced munis?

TH

[David_Tepper]

Tom H. -

No one I know is rooting for high scores. Nor do I think you can characterise the rough at Harding as brutally high or the back tees as being ridiculous.  At least they are no more brutal and/or ridiculous than what you might find at any other significant test for pro golfers these days.

I would not be so quick to dismiss a USGA championship at Harding as a "pipedream." Maybe not the Open, but why not a Senior Open or the Women's Open? Let's face it, almost everybody is looking for an excuse to visit San Francisco and the USGA is not exempt from that.    

DT

[johnk]

I don't think I've ever seen the Huckmeister as down on a course as he is on Harding...   I've never played it due to the aforementioned rip-off rates for non SF residents...

[Mike Benham]

I don't think I've ever seen the Huckmeister as down on a course as he is on Harding...   I've never played it due to the aforementioned rip-off rates for non SF residents...

You must have missed his review of The Ranch ...

[les_claytor]

Tom,

I agree with you on Lincoln Park.  My original assesment was less invasive than most expected.  I do think there are a few holes that could use a hot corner blade, #17 comes to mind.  
Some holes could be improved strategically by mowing lines, #5 comes to mind.  Focus on drainage, kikuya eradification, and I would prescribe Paspalum.  I think the treatment of the grass with salt water could be effective in an ultra sensitive herbicide environment.  

Sharp Park is an interesting case study, and would make an fascinating thesis for a GCA student.  From the original design and construction, to tidal storms, reconstruction, clubhouse, hydrology, to renovation potential you could fill 100 pages in a hurry.  I love to play the course and the potential there gets the juice going.

By the way, did you see Fred Funk play #18 at Harding?  Funk's accuracy cuts the distance.  Similar to his final drive at the Player's Championship with the ability to play the bold line and achieve distance without brutish power.

[Joel_Stewart]

That's why we're glad Kemper Golf has that baby.  They do a good job, but it's a tender subject.

The $16 M they throw around is a project cost incl. GC, clubhouse, maintenance, some infrastructure, etc.  

It'll be interesting to see what happens to the other SF munis.  Lincoln and Sharp are next on the radar.  

Without Kemper the course would be a weed patch like the old course.  I heard the morning show today with Brian Murphy congratulating the city workers for their outstanding job.   I wonder why he didn't mention the last 15 years of poor maintance?  How hard is it to grow grass........

The $16 million does not include the clubhouse.  If you read Geoffs article on www.golfobserver.com their is a legit $3 to $5 million missing or the city was over billed by the PGA tour design team.

As for Lincoln and Sharp, are you speculating or has any formal discussion begun?  IMHO those courses are dead in the water unless Charles Schwab donates the money or somebody else with a plan can convince the city.

[THuckaby2]

Harding Park is freakin' Pine Valley compared to THE RANCH.

 

As for the rest, well... the media sure is playing up the "high rough" angle and when I say ridiculous tees, I mean the crazy back tees being played ONLY for this tournament that are never open the rest of the year.  Aren't there several of those in play?

Look, my point is any course can be made to play tough, and apparently they've done so with Harding.  I'm just not sure that's reason to stand up and applaud.  But that's what people seem to be doing - read Tim Kawakami in today's SJ Merc - so who am I to be the curmudgeon?

I guess I ought to come clean and admit it:  I want the course to fail, all apologies to Sandy Tatum, who I do consider a golf hero, and definite apologies to Les Claytor, who worked on the project but who I assume was just doing his job carrying out the marching orders of others.  Les did such job VERY well.

I just can't get behind turning a muni that once was open to all into another CCFAD that most people can't afford - even if the result is a "rebirth/revival/renaissance" (pick your word du jour) as so many have called Harding.

Come on guys, shoot 59 today!

 

TH

ps to Les - thanks for the thoughts re Lincoln and Sharp - oh yes, Lincoln sure could use some TLC... it just would really bum me out if the quirk was removed.  Quirk is that place's reason for existence.

[Brent Hutto]

So Huck brings up an interesting point. Couldn't you just take most any public or municipal course chosen at random, spend a few million dollars on upgrading and lengthening it and hold a valid PGA Tour event there with five inches of rough and a dozen extra way-back tee boxes?

If you could do that, then sure enough the Tour cachet would mean you can turn around and charge $120/round to staff and maintain it to CCFAD standards. Doesn't seem any great trick if you have the money and connections to pull it off. Sure, you could screw it up and end up with a terrible course but more likely you'd end up with a nice mainstream course in great condition...for $120/round.

[THuckaby2]

Brent:  you just described in a perfect nutshell what they did at Harding.  Of course it's not the easiest trick to pull off:  you have to have a big IN with the PGA Tour, and the city of SF did, through Sandy Tatum and the great history of events in the city.  I'd say you also need a tourist destination or other non-golf draw, which SF certainly is.  Either that or some scenic beauty or other reason to bring the Tour (and tourists), which Harding definitely has.

Put it all together and there are lots of places in the country that would die to trade places with Harding right now.

But SF is a pretty damn big city with a great paucity (I love that word) of affordable golf.  Is the answer really to do this process here?  Especially when they have a course right across the lake that is pretty damn proficient already at hosting the Tour....

I just can't get behind it - even though they did make the course rise from the ashes of the horrible state it was in.  I just can't help but think there could have been a way to do it without Tour involvement, without this event, refurbishing the course but still keeping fees reasonable.  Everyone tells me that's impossible, and that this was the only way improvements to the course we're going to get done.  I guess I ought to just accept it.  

So why can't I?

[Tom Jefferson]

Mr. Huckaby.......

Maybe you can't accept it for the same reason you have a hard time accepting the slight but definite change in the energy, ambiance, clientele at Bandon Dunes...........namely 'cause (at least from my reading of your many posts) you have a heart and a soul and a wistful longing for 'the good old days.'
And, that is not a bad thing at all.  I grew up in San Diego, played high school golf at Torrey, and paid $1.50/month for a golf card that allowed play on mon-tues-thurs-fri after 2 PM.  That included play at Balboa Park, another city course.  I remember the first set of greens at Torrey, all 36 of 'em, and how hard they were to play into, the front third sloping forward and soft in front, the back 2/3 flat and hard as rocks.
Well, I miss that, just as you miss the old Harding and the 'old Bandon'.
Possibly the City could have rebuilt Harding in a different fashion, for less money and with less politics, and ended up with something like Fairfield Ranch, or Paradise Valley, or Bennett Valley (just throwing out names...hope they apply somewhat), but you have Sandy Tatum, with his resume, his connections, his huge golf heart...........and the result is the new Harding.  You have it and I have the new Torrey!

So I'll say it again, in spite of Mr. Ward ripping me a new one for being 'sweet', but..................walk in gratitude, for life is short, and our lives are incredibly rich and blessed.


Me, I gotta go out to Bandon Dunes today and find David Sneddon and his group, and drink and laugh and talk golf with them! .......it is all sooo good, no?  Maybe practice, an increasingly strange idea, and ironic, given that I manage the Practice Center, and rarely use it!

Hope to meet you next time you're in Bandon.

Tom

[Mike Benham]

It is really quite amusing to hear the local media fall all over themselves for this event.

One of Joel's favorite writers turned radio show host, Brian Murphy, admitted this morning that he, upon exiting a port-o-let near the 8th hole, interrupted a golf shot by Justin Leonard by slamming the door.  The guy is a buffon.

Additionally, they had the official historian from Harding praising the FACT that Harding is the oldest public golf course in the US.  (that falls into the category of "I Did Not Know That" ... but then again I don't believe it is true)

[THuckaby2]

Tom J:

That is very sage counsel and I do appreciate it.  I guess you're right - the good ole days aren't coming back, and today's days are pretty damn good as they are.  Both here, and there.  Especially there.

That is the world's greatest practice area you have, btw.

Damn I need to get back up there... and when I do I will track you down for sure.

In any case, thanks for the reality check.

 

[PThomas]

of course, if Monty wins, his first in the U S, that will prove the course is no good

[AndrewB]

So Huck brings up an interesting point. Couldn't you just take most any public or municipal course chosen at random, spend a few million dollars on upgrading and lengthening it and hold a valid PGA Tour event there with five inches of rough and a dozen extra way-back tee boxes?

If you could do that, then sure enough the Tour cachet would mean you can turn around and charge $120/round to staff and maintain it to CCFAD standards. Doesn't seem any great trick if you have the money and connections to pull it off. Sure, you could screw it up and end up with a terrible course but more likely you'd end up with a nice mainstream course in great condition...for $120/round.

Sounds like Bethpage Black without the big increase in greens fees.

[David_Tepper]

Tom H. (& all you naysayers!) -

It is so rare for me to be a cheerleader about anything, but I must say I think you are looking thru the wrong end of the telescope here. Have you been out to Harding this week in person to see what is going on?

Consider the following:

1) Harding is/was not some muni dog track. It was a legitimate PGA Tour stop for a dozen or so years. It has been a legitimate test of golf at the high amateur level for 60 years (Venturi, Ward, Archer, Miller, Watson, et. al.).
2) How does Harding putting in special tees for PGA Tour play differ from what Augusta National has done regularly for the past 50 years? I doubt Hord Hardin was playing from the Masters tees before he departed. The OC Lake is putting in new back tees on a number of holes currently as well. I know for sure I ain't going to be playing from them!
3) How did it become incumbent on the city of SF to provide cheap golf to the rest of the Bay Area? SF residents can play Harding for under $50 seven days a week. SF Bay Area residents can play Harding for $94 on the weekend. Alternatively, you can play Pasatiempo ($165), Half Moon Bay ($145), Stone Tree($115), Presidio ($108) or Eagle Vines ($90). We can all decide for ourselves how the "golf experience" at Harding compares in the marketplace.

No doubt getting the PGA Tour to sign on made the renovation possible. As far as I can see, the majority of people involved are winners from that deal. The people of SF have a marvelous golf course to play on a regular basis at a reasonable fee and the PGA Tour has a quality, telegenic venue in one of the world's favorite cities.

What's wrong with that?

(P.S. - I ran into practicing GCA's Neal Meagher and Dan Bucko at Harding this a.m. Why don't yuo ask them what they think about Harding?)

DT  

[les_claytor]

Glad to hear Neal and Bucko were able to make it out.  I know what Neal thinks, but he's still my buddy!

I will say that I put my heart and soul into Harding for six months, and I was not doing as told (not w/out compromises), but working it out in the field.  I don't mind the criticism, and find other's impressions interesting and educational.  At the end of the day, a project has to stand up to be accounted for and stand the test of time.  I think the Harding will accomplish that in the long run.  When I go out there, I still feel I'm at Harding Park, even though wathching ago pull a cart over a green collar can be painfull.  I have to admit, I'm fortunate to slid in, but I haven't had enough time to take advantage of numerous invites in the Bay.

I did check out Geoff's article, first time on Golfobserver.  I found his characterization of the project budget and "missing funds" to be naive.  If you've never done a public works job in a major city, and can't take the time to find out the specifics..........................  By the way, that good topsoil is buried 20 foot deep in efforts to eradicate kikuya, not cheap.

Gratefully, the Public works Dept. of SF managed and inspected the job, and I had the pleasure of working with them.  Glad I wasn't the contractor, not that they didn't do well.  Lets just say, I know where the "missing funds" ain't!

[Mike Benham]

Back to the tournament, the morning awakes with a clear skies in San Francisco, temps in the low 50s (brrr) and winds between 15-20 mph with gusts higher.  Should be an interesting day at Harding ...

I can hear Tiger's post-round quotes already:  "It was tough out there, you really needed to control your ball flight and play the shot to avoid trouble.  I'm in good position and swinging well, we'll see what happens tomorrow".

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