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Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +1/-1
No More Pegs!
« on: September 30, 2005, 06:37:39 PM »
I had an interesting dinner discussion last night about technology, and one of the people at the table said that if things really got out of hand a simple rule change would stem the tide ...

No more tee pegs.  Just place the ball on the grass and try to hit it from there with your 7-degree driver.

It would make superintendents' lives a bit harder, but it would undoubtedly eliminate most of the 350-yard drives I've seen this week.

THuckaby2

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #1 on: September 30, 2005, 06:41:49 PM »
Tom - like most things, that's been suggested on here before.  God help me I think it was Pat Mucci... but apologies to the originator if it wasn't Pat.

Of course you also know another problem with this:  what's to stop the whole world from adopting the Laura Davies' technique?  Talk about maintenance nightmare... and it does subvert the intent of the rule change.

Intriguing idea, anyway.

TH

TEPaul

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #2 on: September 30, 2005, 06:49:51 PM »
Banning tees in the Rules is absolutely, positively never going to happen. It'll absolutely positively never even be considered. The only thing we can even remotely look forward to in any kind of distance control or distance cap is this thing they've already floated for comment they're calling "spin generation".

THuckaby2

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #3 on: September 30, 2005, 06:50:53 PM »
TEP:

I don't doubt you - but what's the reasoning behind never considering this?

TH

Alfie

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #4 on: September 30, 2005, 06:51:38 PM »
Tom,

No more tee pegs ? But wouldn't that upset the TEE manufacturers  :)

Alfie.

James Bennett

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #5 on: September 30, 2005, 06:58:35 PM »
could always revert to using a dab of sand, like the (really) old days.  That wouldn't affect maintenance too much.

Or, they could have been more realistic (?traditional) when they brought out a maximum tee height.

James B
Bob; its impossible to explain some of the clutter that gets recalled from the attic between my ears. .  (SL Solow)

Alfie

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #6 on: September 30, 2005, 07:02:31 PM »
TEP,

Spin Generation ?

We already have that in the UK. It's called the Labour party.

I agree about the tee's, but totally disagree that spin generation is the ONLY option available / possible.

Of course, Spin Generation could otherwise be known as - "ROLLBACK" !

Alfie

Walker_Taylor

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #7 on: September 30, 2005, 07:09:36 PM »
Jim Stuart won 2 US MidAmateurs and never used a tee. He just tossed it on the ground and hit the driver off the deck. Pretty amazing. Said it gave him more control hitting a low cut. Even more amazing is that he won both tournaments back to back and wasn't chosen for the Walker Cup.
With grass as good as it is now I think it would be a real sporty idea! You are being nominated for next USGA presidency TD.

PThomas

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #8 on: September 30, 2005, 07:12:05 PM »
Roberto DiVencenzo(sp?) used to hit it off the deck at least sometimes
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Dan_Callahan

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #9 on: September 30, 2005, 09:04:04 PM »
I watched Hank Kuehne reach the 10th green at the Buick at Westchester by hitting driver off the deck. Evidently, the 310-yard hole was too short for driver off the tee—he needed to take something off.

Patrick_Mucci

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #10 on: September 30, 2005, 10:14:35 PM »
Tom Doak,

I thought that the USGA had exempted certain fairway metals from the COR limits.   No tee and COR limits would certainly make dramatic and immediate changes.   Compliance might be another matter.

Rather than eliminate the tee, limit it's length, that could serve the same purpose while eliminating the problems associated with prohibiting a tee.

RJ_Daley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #11 on: September 30, 2005, 11:21:01 PM »
Tom Doak, from your IM, I can certainly guess who you were speaking with about that "no more pegs" idea... ;) ;D

But, in fairness, we must give the chief proponent of that idea his due.  It was Robert Trent Jones jr., speaking at an ASGCA meeting not more than a few years ago.  While he gave the after dinner speech in a jesting manner, he was also serious about the notion.  I believe it was Golf Course Management Magazine that did a feature piece on Jones' comments, and they also went into the whole history of when tees started to be used regularly, and how long it took for them to be used ubiquitously.  As I remember it, the use of tees was not a big deal until after WWII era as the article explained.
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #12 on: October 01, 2005, 09:47:48 AM »
RJ,

I was there for those comments, and I had truly never thought of that before.  Frankly, I didn't have the impression that Bobby originated the idea himself either, but as always, I could be wrong.

Like Pat, I am in favor of limiting tee length to just getting it up off the ground a milimeter or so.  

Larry Nelson once postulated that perhaps tees wouldn't have to be level, either.  Any thoughts on adding that element of challenge to the tee shot?
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #13 on: October 01, 2005, 09:56:48 AM »
As someone who occasionally uses no peg, and doesn't create a mound either, I can educatedly opine the logic behind the premise is flawed. I'm not saying I can hit it 350 withor without a peg, but have seen others do so.

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #14 on: October 01, 2005, 04:01:39 PM »
http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=794;start=0

This is the thread with the original speech. I find it quite amusing that we cannot get our arms around this very simple concept. The wooden tee simply has little to do with the game as it evolved — yet it has literally transformed the game in terms of facilitating huge driver heads and less friction against the club-ball dynamic.

How easy it would be to control the professional players to a more accurate club choice and less distance. And...with more variables in the striking of the ball, how much more would each hazard come into play!
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Dan Herrmann

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #15 on: October 01, 2005, 08:42:44 PM »
As a compromise, what about setting a max tee length shorter than the current standard?  

Rick Shefchik

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #16 on: October 02, 2005, 10:00:49 AM »
I'm not saying I can hit it 350 withor without a peg, but have seen others do so.

Adam -- I've seen a guy tear a telephone book in half with his bare hands, too, but I suspect there aren't a whole lot of people who can do that.

This is another suggestion that has merit if it is applied to tournament-caliber amateurs and professionals, but no relevance to the 95 percent of players who aren't getting all that much extra distance from their long tees and $500 drivers. And if Adam is right -- that most, if not all of the scratch players and pros could still hit 350-yard drives without a tee -- then it's an idea that isn't going anywhere.

But my hunch tells me that pros who can hit it 350 off the deck are about as rare as guys who can rip telephone books in half.

« Last Edit: October 02, 2005, 10:01:18 AM by Rick Shefchik »
"Golf is 20 percent mechanics and technique. The other 80 percent is philosophy, humor, tragedy, romance, melodrama, companionship, camaraderie, cussedness and conversation." - Grantland Rice

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #17 on: October 02, 2005, 10:26:53 AM »
I can't see how this idea would ever gain much acceptance. The only people it would seriously affect are the non-tour players among us andthe effect would be more pronounced as handicaps rose.  
"Teeing" the ball is as old as the rules themselves, the wooden pegs we use have been around for at least 75 years.  
The only equitable way to curtail distance is to find a way to limit it amongst the world's longest hitters without seriously affecting the remaining millions of players for whom too much distance is only a dream.
I'd have to go along with Tom Paul on this, spin rates of golf balls is probably the way to go.
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #18 on: October 02, 2005, 10:30:20 AM »
Rick,

Great point. Why do we all focus on 150 guys....but really about 15 guys, since the average PGA Tour drive hasn't gone up as much as the longest drives........and about the same amount of classic tournament venues?

Is the fact that their talent will force three major , and possibly a few other invitational tournaments a year (assuming all other US Tour events are going to TPC courses that the Tour owns anyway) to either new courses, or a handful of classics that are renovated beyond recognition worth screwing up all the rest of us for?

Like you, I think reducing the tee or possibly eliminating it (although that would make the pro game seem too different) is the way to go  - only for pros, if we must.

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Cliff Hamm

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #19 on: October 02, 2005, 11:57:26 AM »
Rick

I would ditto the comments Jeff made.  Had considered a similar post.  All the equipment changes over the past 10-20 years have not lowered the average handicap.  The technology by far is benefiting the pros and top amateurs.  There is absolutely no need to make limits on the ball, etc for the vast, vast majority of us as the benefits have frankly been more negligible than the marketing folks would make us believe.

I might make an analogy to softball and amateur baseball.   If you have played either in the last 20 years did you use a wooden bat?  No only the pros do.  To paraphrase - they play a game with which I am not familair.

ForkaB

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #20 on: October 02, 2005, 12:17:21 PM »
I have always thought this was a great idea (or at least since we discussed it here a few years ago).  However, I think now as I did then that it will never be adopted, alas, as it would make the game too hard for most people, particularly the pros....

Alfie

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #21 on: October 02, 2005, 12:17:48 PM »
Cliff,

"All the equipment changes over the past 10-20 years have not lowered the average handicap.  The technology by far is benefiting the pros and top amateurs."
...

Quite right. Unfortunately, the way technology works is that it "affects" everyone whether they benefit - or not !
The best courses are designed for the best golfers, while even the lowly run of the mill layouts HAVE to try and keep up creating senseless expense for the golfers who benefit least !

Turning our backs on the pro's and best amateurs does nothing for the sport, and nothing towards solving the problem.

A universal "rollback" of the ball is THE solution - if only the golfer would finally believe it ?

Alfie

A_Clay_Man

Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #22 on: October 02, 2005, 12:31:03 PM »
I'm not saying I can hit it 350 withor without a peg, but have seen others do so.

Adam -- I've seen a guy tear a telephone book in half with his bare hands, too, but I suspect there aren't a whole lot of people who can do that.

This is another suggestion that has merit if it is applied to tournament-caliber amateurs and professionals, but no relevance to the 95 percent of players who aren't getting all that much extra distance from their long tees and $500 drivers. And if Adam is right -- that most, if not all of the scratch players and pros could still hit 350-yard drives without a tee -- then it's an idea that isn't going anywhere.

But my hunch tells me that pros who can hit it 350 off the deck are about as rare as guys who can rip telephone books in half.



Rick- If the few really good am's I've seen, can do it, how long will it take the rest to adapt? Not long

It's folly to think getting rid of the peg will cause classic courses to be automatically put back into their historic roll, as premiere venues.

It's also fascinating that a mainstream architect is being given credit for the idea. or even that an archie would come up with this red herring solution.

I've said it before... it is the archie who should overcome the distance probem through intelligent design. Not some parlor trick of a suggestion to get rid of the tee. Puh-ha-leeze

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #23 on: October 02, 2005, 12:40:08 PM »
Adam — They may be able, occasionally, to strike a shot 350-yards from the deck, but only if "the deck" is smooth and pristine. Do you really think "the deck" will be in good shape after all those daily shots? Regardless, the shots will be further off line. So the wise player will carefully consider club selection, perhaps going with 10-15% less distance — by choice.

Jim — 75 years is a relatively short timespan in the life of golf. And, the wooden tee only gained widespread popularity after WWII, so it's really not quite 75 years.

One has to look at the length of the wooden tee. It should, at the least, be significantly shortened.......but, I still adore the idea to get rid of it completely.
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

Forrest Richardson

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:No More Pegs!
« Reply #24 on: October 02, 2005, 12:44:44 PM »
Jim K. was kind to post this a few years ago. Here it is again for those who have not read this...

___

EXCERPTS FROM THE "TEE IT DOWN" DINNER

Last year at the U.S. Open at Southern Hills in Tulsa, I had the privilege to be included in an informal discussion at a private dinner hosted by the USGA. The discussion turned on how traditional championship courses could stand up against the onslaught of ball and implement technology. Thus I now report to you a proposal made by Peter Dawson, Secretary of the R & A, at that time with which I concur.
"There's one sure way to level the playing field of golf," the Wise Man said." And that is to take away the current artificiality. You don't have to ban any new technology. You don't require the player to give up his preferred ball with its hexogumple dimples and its hoxadymonic flight pattern. You don't even have to fight a patent. The only patent pertaining to my subject has long expired. "We also have a long-standing tradition on which to base our decision. It's called playing the ball as it lies," Mr. Dawson reminds us.
So colleagues, here's the plan: we ban the tee from the tee.
Each club player will be allowed to roll his ball around on that area, praying that he finds a tuft of something, or a worm-cast, or a acorn-cup or whatever, while our job will be to ensure that each tee is properly constructed to be tightly cut and as smooth and fine as any eleven stimp-measured green. But during club medals or other championships, the rule would be simple. Drop the ball between and behind the markers and play it from where it comes to rest.
There will be one new etiquette standard, and that shall be all. A player who scuffs the teeing area will be required to make repairs from available sod and sand to ensure the area is left as pristine as we presently leave bunkers and greens. With that then let the best player find some way to fly the ball with a 7.5 degree light-alloy, bigheaded driver three hundred and thirty-three yards through the air.
And for my fellow golf course architects in the audience we shall have a role to play in all of this. Up until now most of you have been moving bunkers on the fairway wings forward from two hundred and sixty yards out into the high two eighties. Now I want you to consider placing sizable bunkers with significant lips, and very soft, powdery sand, say about fifty to one hundred yards or so from the championship tees as Donald Ross once implemented.
I see some of you grimacing, no doubt thinking that this change will only service to take the driver out of the hands of highly-skilled exponents of golf; and that they will simply use a 3-wood to get ample distance, the way young Tiger Woods has done in order to master holes such as that tough, dogleg 13th at Augusta National with a high sweeping hook. Perhaps therefore I have not been sufficiently explicit in the proposal.
What I heard is exactly the opposite: the driver will still be obligatory for everyone on the par fours and fives. The only other option permitted will be the wedge. Draconian, did I hear someone murmur? Perhaps, but you see we have sat around for long enough doing nothing while that was always the constant complaint. No, we have waited for far too long while technology crept up on us and turned golf on its ear. Now it is impossible to turn back the clock, and we are stuck with lawsuits by manufacturers, and how resistance to change is bad for the game and on and on.
Nevertheless, now we can do something and something very positive, even though it too will cause some measure of resentment. Still, that's the way things have always been with golf, ever since Old Tom Morris or even before his time.

{continued}
— Forrest Richardson, Golf Course Architect/ASGCA
    www.golfgroupltd.com
    www.golframes.com

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