The Bunker Depth - Green depth decision

[Patrick_Mucci]

When a bunker fronts a green or a portion of a green, what are the determining factors for deciding whether to go for the pin or play a safer approach shot ?

What bunker depth creates concern ?

What green depth (shallowness) creates concern ?

What combination of these two features causes concern ?

How much of a factor is the wind ?

Can you cite an example of a bunker-green complex that you've played that forces YOU to play safe.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Pat-

  I would think of several at Forsgate.  Now, it's been several years, and I haven't played it in a 'match' format, but I remember #s 3, 8,9,10, and 18 being particularly treacherous.  

  I also saw a few at the Knoll (#9, #12) that I'd think twice about taking on.  

How about you?  

[James Bennett]

How firm is the green.

What club am I playing. (wedge, mid-iron, long iron).  In conjunction with considering the green's firmness and depth, can I actually play this club and get the ball to stop near the pin.

If I fail, do I have a chance of getting near the pin with a bunker recovery.  This is influenced by the slope of the sand (downhill lies are a bugger) and the slope of the green (playing from sand to a downhill slope is more difficult).

If I am going to play safe, what is the option like.  If it is nearly as difficult as the short bunker shot, then I might as well go for the pin (this can be the outcome for a penal hole).  If it is a relatively simple two-putt or chip-putt from the safe play option, then I might play safe (a strategic hole outcome).

I am more likely to go for the pin into the wind, because I am more likely to be able to stop the ball.  And a miss-hit to the safe play will probably be as bad as a mis-hit at the pin.  Down wind, I will need more green depth.


James B

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I really have no personal answer as to the combination of depths, it's situational.
I would avoid the bunker on #8 at Yale like the plague, even though the green offers a reasonably sized landing area. Just the thought of being in that bunker forces play away from it.
 

[John Shimp]

Hole 1 at Pinehurst #2 is an example for me.  Shallow green that is not fun to play back to with a severe bunker front left.  Also, given that it is the first hole, I am more reluctant to go for anything as the round is just beginning. Here I tend to miss safe short and right.

[Kyle Harris]

Pat,

Like a similar question you brought up earlier in the year about greenside bunkers, I will cite the 11th at Huntingdon Valley. Granted the bunkers in question are behind or next to the green.

In this case, the bunkers actually lie above the green, making for a much more difficult shot. The green is extremely narrow (12 yards at its narrowest, 25 at its widest) which places a premium on both the bunker shot itself, and the approach.

The bunker to the right of the green is actually below the green level, and affords the best angle to any of the hole locations, as the creek fronting the green puts a premium on shots from the back bunkers.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Great question!

The play safe combo must best be exemplified by the Road Hole bunker, where depth and steep bank combine to force the issue there.  The key bunker decision obviously is related to the answer to the question - "Can I get out in one shot?"  I think most golfers are comfortable in any bunker they can see out of, and a deeper one - about six feet - starts to cause concern.

As to green depth, it really is a matter of degree on all shot factors, and the wind can change the same pin position caluclations daily, but I did hear Jack Nicklaus say once that 40 feet deep was about as shallow as he would go for.  That has always been a good enough design criteria for me.......

Good players have such good distance control, and spin control, I think the amount slope of the green would also factor in - if a player can spin it back he might be more likely to go for it.

Many good players tell me that they are more likely to go for a tight pin into the wind, since they can judge how much extra club to give it, and they get more spin.  Downwind is a more difficult shot, since the probability of spinning the shot in a tight area reduces somewhat.

I have designed a few greens with front bunkers and extreme depth.  When the pin sets just behind the bunker, its similar to the (former) Augusta 13 tee shot theory - its harder to hit close to the creek when you know you have 50 yards of fw to the right.  Sometimes, I think its harder to go for the pin when a larger area exists to bail out - especially if you are still putting a reasonable distance - than if you have an all or nothing shot.  That is the kind of subtle shot decision that always creates interest.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Jeff,

I had the 17th at TOC,the 12th at ANGC and the 13th at Pine Tree in mind when I thought about the subject.

Jim Kennedy,

I agree, perhaps it's the scale or severe depth combined with the angle of attack on # 8 that causes one to be more cautious than on # 2, and equally deep, but somehow not nearly as threatening of a bunker.

[James Bennett]

Jeff,

I had the 17th at TOC,the 12th at ANGC and the 13th at Pine Tree in mind when I thought about the subject.

Patrick

In writing my response, I also thought of TOC #17.  Would you be more willing to attack the pin with a third shot from 100 yards (a wedge) than a long second?  

I was also thinking of the strategy for a hole that has a similarly shallow depth as Augusta #12 (but without the water).  On my local hole, I will go for the pin on a very shallow green, because the recovery (as long as the front bunker is missed) is easier than the safe play away from the bunker.  I know from previous discussion that you regard #12 as very shallow - what would the safe play be for you to a Sunday pin?

James B

[Jim_Kennedy]

Pat,
I have the same feeling as you about #2. Adding to what you said,  the bunker on #8 feels closer and looks deeper than those on #2. Perhaps it's due in part to the visual difference, #2 being more open, when approaching either of these greens. Additionally, the left side of #8 is a no-no for the entire length of the hole so by the time you get to the green you may have more respect for or fear of that bunker.

[JESII]

When a bunker fronts a green or a portion of a green, what are the determining factors for deciding whether to go for the pin or play a safer approach shot ?

The quality of your own bunker game plays the largest role. The make-up, or playability, of the sand would also be a consideration. Occasionally the bunker is preferred, and this is unfortunate.

[TEPaul]

One of the most interesting holes this way in my opinion is the Eden hole at NGLA with a front pin when the greens are pretty fast. It's pretty tough to decide what you want to do. All you think about first is just some way to not get in that fronting bunker. I guess most of my decisions have been to just try to play the shot past the pin and hope I have a decent shot at two putting coming back down the hill. A front pin when the greens are fast on this hole is a most interesting strategic puzzle. The green is not shallow at all but with a front pin it's functionally pretty shallow.  

[Patrick_Mucci]

James Bennett,

It's difficult to answer your question in a personal context because I feel that most who are fortunate enough to play ANGC aren't going to play safe when given the opportunity to hit a heroic shot.

Although the approach to # 11 presents a far more threatening challenge that favoring the right side seems more appealing.

I think the shorter nature of the shot at # 12, coupled with confidence in my bunker game would lead me to attack # 12 no matter where the pin was located.

TEPaul,

The green at # 13 at NGLA plays smaller than its dimensions.
Playing short of that green and bounding the ball up onto the putting surface isn't a bad play either.

That bunker and the Road Hole bunker on # 7 need to be avoided at all costs.

Jim Kennedy,

Perhaps it's the angle of attack, the lie and the visual that # 8 presents that make it seem far more formidable than # 2.
Whatever it is..... it works

JES II,

While I'd agree in general, there are certain bunkers that challenge even the best bunker games.  In addition, the consequences of a plugged lie are exponentially more dire.

There's a certain visual image that signals your brain to avoid pin seeking.... that, discretion is the better part of valor.

[PThomas]

the way my greenside bunker game is these days   :'(Patrick I'm trying to avoid ALL those bunkers like the plague!

[TEPaul]

"Playing short of that green and bounding the ball up onto the putting surface isn't a bad play either."

Patrick:

You can try that but I'd prefer my ball to be in the air when it goes by the Strath bunker.