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TEPaul

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #100 on: December 12, 2002, 03:57:21 PM »
Kelly:

When you said Mike Cirba and I must know something about art---I don't know what he knows about it but I don't know much at all except what I see and feel about it, like the Van Gogh paintings. I'm not sure I see why I'd need to know more at this point or even if that's possible. I have little idea about what others know or feel about it either. But I sure would like to have watched Van Gogh do what he did.

One great architect, probably MacDonald, said in his book that he thought it was fruitless to try to come up with something in architecture that's wholly original--and in a way Coore sure said the same thing.

To them it seemed just a matter of being more and more aware of the scope of possibilities that are out there (the pieces or notes) and how to arrange those possibilities in various ways.

And you're right, it's a game with some pretty clear dictates attached to it, so that has to be fairly limiting, for sure. As for Van Gogh--I doubt it was a game he was needing to conform to so his freedom of expression and ability to come up with the original was probably more unlimited--but only as limited as his paints and his ability to apply them however he wanted to, I guess.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #101 on: December 12, 2002, 05:34:28 PM »
JimK:

That's interesting what you say about your artist friend with the enormous canvas tacked to the wall and things like not wanted to get limited in a corner of a frame or whatever.

From a sort of construction standpoint (not necessarily the visual standpoint) I can sure see that, and an architect I worked with while analyzing a really beautiful stretch of ground that happened to be in a corner of the property said about the same thing--ie the ground was great but he felt in both a routing and design sense it could be hard to get in and out of--ie he felt he would get stuck in that corner.

But the "frame" remark I made in the other post is really mostly all "visuals" to me. And I mean it only in this sense:

Most architects, maybe even all of them, seem to like to direct the golfers eye somehow, they seem to think that's very necessary, maybe even essential, whether it be to a particular strategy, a general visual frame of reference to a whole hole, or a part of it, and/or certainly at a minimum, some indication of where a golfer could or should go--should think to play the ball first, next etc!

That one particular aspect of architecture I'm not sure I agree with and maybe not at all--although I can certainly see the potential drawbacks to what I'm saying, like all the requirements today of speed of play, danger, unfairness, whatever.

But I'm only trying to talk about this in a sort of "outside the box" architectural way as a form of appearing to revert architecture to nature better or the perception of it.

I think it's interesting in architecture and also for the golfer to have to look around and study the situation in front of him, even very carefully and figure out for himself, maybe with very little direction or even indication from the architect, how best to proceed! There're obviously a broad number of way to do this architecturally!

I'm not even saying hide things from the golfer or obfuscate the course, just give him a less than limited and defined frame of reference visually.

In other words, make him look around for himself instead of leading his eye or certainly holding his hand visually and making it patently obvious where to go! Don't always lead and direct his eye, make him move his eyes and his head too if need be!

Or put another way--there're a few "art principles" mentioned in the back of Cornish and Whitten's book to do with golf course design.

1. Harmony
2. Balance
3. Rhythm
4. Emphasis

I think I believe strongly in harmony and balance but rhythm and particularly emphasis I'm not sure I do! Emphasis, as defined in C&W is basically an architect leading the golfer's eye or attention, generally to the most important part of the arrangement!

If 'the most important part of the arrangement' is always to where the golfer should hit the ball, I definitely don't agree with emphasis in design that way. Sometimes maybe, but possibly only randomly or occasionally and other times maybe direct his eye to the wrong place, maybe most of the time don't direct his eye at all, let him pick up on anything that occurs to him if only to let him know that just maybe he's out in nature on his own and this time he'll need to really look around at all of it (no frame of reference) to figure things out for himself and find his own way to go.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #102 on: December 12, 2002, 05:51:48 PM »
Tom MacWood:

I would not consider comments from a person who has not played a course in question to be "worthless." I would, however, place them in some sort of meaningful context.

If someone has actually been to a particular site they have the huge advantage in taking in all the elements that are present and if they are capable in examining and explaining such a situation I would place greater value in that role than in one that comes from secondary sources.

It becomes a matter of context and keen analysis.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #103 on: December 12, 2002, 07:15:20 PM »
I think the mention of the fact that my (our--Wayne and I) never having played or even seen Flynn's Indian Creek but having a great deal in the way of Flynn's detailed plans as well as many historic aerial and on-ground photos of Indian Creek will be an interesting situation when Wayne and I get there, play it, analyze it, hopefully in real detail this winter.

That kind of thing should throw some light on this discussion between Matt and Tom.

I hadn't exactly thought much about this until now, but just think about what this means.

In almost all cases people who are looking at a golf course, see, play and get to know the course as it is today and then they get involved in the historic research and research material. I'll never forget how amazed I was when I first saw the historic old aerials of my course--it looked so different! I was of course looking at the situation from today backwards for the first time.

But Indian Creek, we've never seen but we have the original plans and all the old historic photos--aerial and on-ground.

In a way, for us, this might be a bit like William Flynn, who died in 1945 being able to see his course today after not having seen it in possibly 60-70 years. It would probably look very different to him than he remembered.

It will probably look very different to us than our image of it because all we know is what it looked like 50-70 years ago.

This will be great actually--a wonderful way to probably feel just how Flynn would have--maybe to even see it through his eyes. In a way we're going in there with an expectation and image of what it was in the 1930s, not 2002. In a way we might almost be able to wipe away the future from the 1930s on, but only for a brief time until we can see all that's changed from the 1930s to 2002!

It's always great to try to put yourself in the time of those your studying without the knowledge of what came after them. This might be the most useful way yet to do exactly that!

But when we come away from there this winter after having studied it then and now we sure as hell better have a better idea of the evolution of the golf course, and also the details and ramifications of what it was then and what its been restored back to than someone who just went down there and played the golf course now!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #104 on: December 12, 2002, 07:22:53 PM »
Matt
I think this fairway looks like a runway. I don't think a primary, secondary or trimary source would argue with that assessment.


An example of modern uniform grading


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #105 on: December 12, 2002, 07:31:07 PM »
TE
I agree, that will be a very interesting experiment. I know one thing because of your research and ability to analyze architecture, I can't think of anyone whose opinion of Indian Creek I would rather hear. Its the combination of research and analytical ability that seperates the opinions of you, Ran and few others for me.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #106 on: December 12, 2002, 07:35:16 PM »
Tom MacW:

I tell you what! I've never seen Ballygowen (except in that little photo), never played it, never nothing with it, can't really comment on the course's architecture at all, and that fairway maybe flat as a pancake, but if I'm gonna take off a runway in an airplane, I sure as hell hope the runway doesn't look like that fairway! I don't mind flyin' but I might have to whip out my rosary beads on that takeoff!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

TEPaul

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #107 on: December 12, 2002, 07:45:02 PM »
Oh sorry--you're supposed to play golf on that runway, right? Well, that's different! Judging from that photo though, I don't think I'd ever want to play that golf course. I like firm and fast but that fairway isn't even brown, it's tan, and the whole place looks hot as Hades anyway, look how red everything is!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #108 on: December 12, 2002, 08:51:47 PM »
TE
I give the runway a 4+.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #109 on: December 12, 2002, 09:14:51 PM »
I think this is a great thread in a lot of ways, touching on many of the points that I think are underlying what many of us seem to enjoy (and not) in golf course architecture.  If this isn't a full-blown revolution, it's certainly something of a bloodless coup, this being a gentlemen's game and all.  

Think about it.  The game of golf has been played for a few hundred years, and about 120 in the United States.  During that time, there has never really been a forum for critical discussion and widespread, worldwide participation of opinions related to golf course architecture until now.  Yes, there were always magazines and periodicals, but with few exceptions, those always were more interested in promotion and advertising revenues than in any kind of serious study and dissection of the art.  What's more, even those that attempted some degree of reflective thinking often suffered from being the brainchild of a single voice, such as Walter Travis or Tillinghast's early articles.

The Golden Age sprung up because a group of interested, well-connected, well-heeled gentlemen took it upon themselves to advance the state of the game in this country.  Through their often collaborative efforts, and shared ideas and information, some of the greatest courses in the history of the game were built.  

Then came the Depression and WWII, and that group was scattered to the wind, leaving little in the way of interconnected thought, direct legacies, means and modes of communicating ideas, or anyone to share it with.  What proceeded next were individuals springing up in pockets of activity...first Dick Wilson & RT Jones, then others in various areas of the country.  There was really nothing going on in the way of collaboration or sharing of ideas and philsophies, as each of these men largely staked out their own way.  In a way, this time period was somewhat different from what proceeded it based on this individuality, leading to entreprenurial architects and "signature" designs.

The popularity of golf in our lifetimes, starting with Arnie, Jack, etc., probably did a great deal to interest others in courses and their architecture, as well as the writings of men like Herbert Warren Wind and William Davis.  Still, I sense that many "laymen" not directly involved in the field just saw themselves as passionate lovers of golf course architecture, with no real way to express that love other than through playing courses and internalizing those feelings.

Without wanting to overstate the importance of a forum like GCA, I sense that it's bigger than most of us think.  All of a sudden, here we have people passionate about architecture from around the globe, and from various fields within the industry, hanging out together to share information, opinions, in healthy and frank, valuable debate.

We're in our infancy here, if you think about it.  The technologies that fuel this type of world-wide communication are going to be around for a long time, becoming more refined and important to our daily lives.  But even at this early stage, there is no denying that something is happening out there.  According to some of those entrenched in the game, we might really be a "bunch of f****** dilettantes, but this begs the question of why they are in here reading in the first place!  

Can the result of this type of forum really help to usher in another "Golden Age", by becoming a meeting place for advancing things like professional discussion and collaboration, a melting pot of differing ideas and opinions, and an "acid test" for design ideas and methodologies that are being adopted in the field?  I don't see why not.    

I don't think we are necessarily going to be a "majority opinion", but I do think we can have considerable influence because one thing I've learned is that the course of history is largely determined by small groups of impassioned individuals with a shared idea whose time has come.    
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #110 on: December 12, 2002, 09:16:47 PM »
I remember studying everything I could get my hands on about Augusta National prior to my first visit.  It was a great learning process to research the evolution of the course.  Furthermore, after all the time studying coupled with watching the Masters for years, etc., I felt pretty confident of what I would see when I finally got there.  But it wasn't until I set foot on that property and looked out over the course that I realized there was no substitute for actually being there and seeing it.  And it didn't matter whether I liked the course or not.  No pictures, written descriptions or TV coverage did justice compared to actually seeing for myself what was there now.  

I've found similar experiences with courses like St. Andrews, Pine Valley, Pebble Beach, Cypress,... and really most any other noted golf course.  There is a totally different learning experience being there, and on the greatest courses, the more times you go, the more you learn.  You have no idea for example how flat or how undulating that Ballyowen fairway is from that picture.  Go play the course, then post the picture and make your comment.

Moreover, I think the reseach part is great, especially on the older golf courses.  But other then for personal interest or unless you're planning to restore in some manner the golf course your looking at, don't you study a golf course as you find it?  It's pretty hard to evaluate architecture that is not there or that was once there but is now gone!    

Finally, what research do you do on a course like Sand Hills or Pacific Dunes?  I find it facinating to find out how courses like these were built, etc but if you want to research the architecture of a newer design, you go see them and play them!

It's like Tom Doak says in his book about courses that are 10's, "if you haven't seen all the courses in this category, you don't know how good golf architecture can get.  Drop the book and call your travel agent - immediately!

I would have lost all respect for him if he concluded instead, "Cancel your travel plans and keep reading my book"  ;)    
Mark
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #111 on: December 12, 2002, 11:18:41 PM »

Quote
Slag:

 I was sort of hoping you'd keep going---! So why don't you?

 Tommy,  I have a short attention span.

  www.juxtapoz.com          This magazine/art site proclaims the future of art is there. (?)
                                I once saw a pictorial in their magazine of an artist that used common shlock sculptures as his canvas for painting.  It was quite amazing the images that were chosen for say, a female Hummel figurine with a bloody-eyed skull*.  It really worked well from the point of being fascinated by it for the ideas behind it. The whole struggle of innocence under the evil sacrilege placed upon it.  One couldn't help but feel sympathy for the poor ceramic doll being transformed and vandalized. Yet,  her form still defiantly smiled. It may not be marketable for whitebread America but they were very strong opposing images. (*My example is weak but I hope you get the idea.)  

 Sooooo,  the canvas of land is there and, like Jim Kennedy's friend who avoids thinking with frames and limits, the land should not be disguised and distorted like a perceived ugliness.  

    Any revolution starts in the mind of the architect.  He/she can't worry about the trend or x-player whoring his name around to make a buck.   There must be, in my strong opinion, a high worth ethic for the land and final result.  There will always remain the struggle of the owners monetary worth of the land and their egos.  

  Bottom line is, this land is more important than the architect and the architect should relinquish his stand...and stand taller.  

  
  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Slag_Bandoon

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #112 on: December 12, 2002, 11:27:33 PM »
Mike C, I was going to drag one of your quotes into here but the whole damn things so good I couldn't butcher it into cutlets.  Anyway,  I wish I'd said that.      

 On that other tangent that krept into here... Playing golf is more fun and valuable and inspiring than talking about it but...here we are.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #113 on: December 13, 2002, 12:26:15 AM »
Discussing art, GCA and primary vs. secondary experience and creativity, the thread only lacks CBMac's input for perspective and to come nearly full circle.

Old Charlie felt that until one played a course many times one could not know it fully, so perhaps not even playing the course is enough and is definitely not  a guarantee that one will understand it.

A propos Ballyowen and the picture that seemed to spawn all of this, having played that particular course not a single hole really left me with the thought of a runway.  I believe the hole as pictured plays uphill and the bulges in the fairway as seen are variously accessable by different golfers according to skill and angle chosen, but are actually not visible from the tee.  The picture is deceiving in this regard.

So in this case, the photo is misleading, taken out of context and I believe not a regular view of the hole as played.  (I am not 100% sure, I will find the course guide and double check.)

Ballyowen is a surprisingly satisfying golf course given its manufactured nature, its overuse of water (A more hidden reservoir would have been thematically more consistent) and its only glaring negative I can first recall is a doubling back to various tees which interferes with a good walk.

It is good to have all the facts and to be able to recognize and describe them accurately.  A landing strip it is not.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Ronan_Branigan

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #114 on: December 13, 2002, 03:27:55 AM »
TE Paul

Dare I say that I disagree with something that you have said because I have enjoyed all of your inputs so far but I can see the merits of emphasis in design to lead the player to the 'focal points'. However, I am also aware that to lead someone visually around a site can take away from the spontaneity of coming across a 'happy accident' in visual terms. The real art is to make those 'happy accidents' appear to be such as the real art of GCA is to make earthworks look natural. As according to our esteemed forefathers Wethered and Simpson in their book The Architectural Side of Golf " A course should merge pleasantly into the landscape; the folds of the greens and fairways should present agreeable curves against backgrounds of trees and hills; and where it is necessary to move earth to heighten levels or form depressions in new ground, the thing should be done with the delicacy of a sculptor modelling his clay".

Mike Cirba

Why didn't you just keep on writing, great post. If you are thinking of creating a 'splinter group' of GCA's let me put my name forward for the European Branch. It's true what you say about small passionate groups having a bigger impact than their numbers dictate. If one looks back through time this can be seen in the majority of wars, coups etc.... The man who has not learned from the past has learned nothing at all!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #115 on: December 13, 2002, 03:50:34 AM »
Mike,

When I first started discussing GCA on this site nearly two years ago I didn't think it had any impact on any course anywhere in the world.

A visit over the pond to visit a few people like Tom Paul and Jeff Brauer convinced me that this site is being read by more people than we know.  There are people from Pine Valley and Merion reading that I know of.  

If it hadn't been for this forum, I am not sure that I would have jumped in with two feet into design and may have just stayed in golf course construction.  However architects like Tom Doak, Jeff Brauer and others encouraged me with e-mails  to jump in especially Jeff.  I learn most of my design work from books and my design partner Jeremy Turner.  None of you know Jeremy but this man knows more about British golf than any other man I have ever met.  You guys may think Tom Doak knows a lot about the British Isles but he knows just a pinch of salt compared to Jeremy.  Jeremy makes at least one study trip to the British Isles every year.  I don't know anyother architect that does that outside of Britain and Ireland.

Jeremy didn't really believe much about this forum until his little trip to America with me and met people like Tom Paul.  He says it was like being in heaven to spend 12 days not only playing great courses but talking to peoplt that are passionate about GCA.

Without this forum none of the above would have taken place.  I have discussed with Ronan in great lengths what we want in life and both of agree on many things.  Some of the other students want to design many courses and earn lots of money and that is not a bad thing.  One thing I think both and I Ronan agree on is that we would love to go to our graves with a happy family left behind and just one great course in the same mould as Pacific Dunes or Sand Hills.

If I can leave behind a course that stands the test of time and is fun for everyone to play then I will die a happy man.  If my wife never leaves me and my kids are happy and I have that one course then I can't ask for more in life.

Without this forum I wouldn't be trying to achieve that with the same passion and commitment I have now.  I will leave you with a quote we were given on our course which explains why we have to look back on the past:

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'

Charles Santyana, Spanish born philosopher and critic,1905

Brian.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

Tom MacWood (Guest)

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #116 on: December 13, 2002, 04:35:52 AM »
redanman
The tarmac comment was for humorous effect. I have nothing against Ballyowen; I don't know anything about Ballyowen. The photo was useful in illustrating a type of modern course that favors the use of very regular grading, soft flowing curves and machine like precission. What I think this thread boils down to is this: is there a need to go in one direction or another. Toward the older method of relying more heavily on natural features or this method of creating a stylized man-made view of nature. I know you (and many others) are very fond of courses in both camps. And your post illustrates why we should have both types and why will continue to have both types - people like both. There is no need for a revolution.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

ForkaB

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #117 on: December 13, 2002, 04:55:34 AM »
Mr. Phillips

One thing I remember from the past is that Santaya's name was George.

The Ballyowen Debating Society

Please humour Mr. MacWood and call that hole a landing strip so we can get this thread back on its proper flight path.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Brian Phillips

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #118 on: December 13, 2002, 05:08:40 AM »
ForkaB,

You are absolutely right.  My lecturer will be receiving the cane.  I looked up his name on my Encarta and his name is George.

Brian.

'Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it'
George Santayana
(1863-1952)
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
Bunkers, if they be good bunkers, and bunkers of strong character, refuse to be disregarded, and insist on asserting themselves; they do not mind being avoided, but they decline to be ignored - John Low Concerning Golf

TEPaul

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #119 on: December 13, 2002, 05:40:15 AM »
Ronan:

As for what I said about not liking the sort of standard use of "emphasis" to lead a golfer visually (whether it looks natural or not), don't concern yourself at all about not agreeing with me. As I said in a earlier post, on that particular point, I don't think I've ever found a single architect past or present who agrees with me on that!

But nevertheless, I still can't say the idea does NOT interest me, and for the basic reason given---Where does nature itself really lead you visually if you're playing some game or sport within it? I would say it probably doesn't lead you visually--that's just something you have to figure out for yourself when in it! Unless or until golf architecture (the man-made medium and canvas) enters the equation to purposely supply you with visual keys!

Frankly, even both ends of the visual or "emphasis" (or lack of it) spectrum in architecture which I might say would be MacKenzie at one end of the spectrum and Ross at the other, interests me too.

I feel MacKenzie's basic theme of making a course's best line of play appear far harder than it really is (vestiges of his ideas on camouflage) satisfies some of what I'm driving at, as does Ross's theme of making a best line (particularly driving areas) often appear to be of no real choice or consequence at all (a false sense of security).

I've never laid eyes on TOC, but I have heard a million times that that course basically provides no golfer with much of anything in the way of understandable visual keys (emphasis) of how to proceed!

If that's so, and the course is considered the laboratory of golf architecture (in a stratetgic sense), golf's mecca to study, why are golf architects so concerned about "visual emphasis" all the time? Why did this so-called "art principle" of visual "emphasis" enter into golf design if TOC is truly the natural prototype to be adhered to in strategic design?

I think I know the answer. The answer lies in the undeniable dichotomy (at least to me) in the often told remark from even those such as Hunter, MacKenzie and Behr that TOC is the ideal but for some reason no one's really had the guts to copy it's true THEME, (which is, by the way, golf in nature, simply because no architect actually designed the course)! If TOC is anything, it's definitely random emphasis, if any emphasis at all of the way to proceed while playing golf!

So why was that natural theme never strictly adhered to, or very rarely so? I think we know why! Right out of the box of architectural creation (man-made features), even the initial thinkers in golf architecture got into a "can't do this, can't do that" frame of mind.

Why did even the best of them do that? I think because they could understand the realities of man's inclination to dominate nature, in small ways, large ways, any way he could! And they probably felt, and maybe rightly so, that they would be better off going with man's inclination rather than nature itself. How completely and fundamentally,though, this departed from the game that had been handed down to us by the Scots before man-made architecture ever existed. This was definitely not lost on C.B. MacDonald! But just maybe, even he was into the reality of offering golf to those other than Scots who might only accept it in some altered form!!

To me all this is very much wrapped up in the undeniable undelying ethos of man in how he looks at and perceives Nature, most and best exemplified by the American phenomenon of "Manifest Destiny" which in a very real way involves how man looks at Nature!

He loves it and hates it simultaneously! He really can see the majesty of it--the beauty of it but at the same time believes that to survive in its raw majesty he has to conquer it!

And hence the ultimate rationalization for this ingrained contradiction--"Manifest Destiny"--ie man's God given right to overcome Nature even if that might mean destroying it in the process (since clearly in many cases this actually hurts and offends his sensibilities in many ways!).

Maybe, this is a long way from the subject of supplying golfers with understandable visual keys (emphasis) throughout the entire playing of the game but I hope you can understand what I mean.

One can definitely see in Behr's most interesting articles on this overall subject how important it was to the essence of the original sport to accept nature just as it was in an unfettered and unaltered state.

But he was clever enough to admit that the basic necessities of the game, the tees, fairways and greens (and to some degree the odd vestige--the bunker feature) would have to be dealt with and made to appear like nature itself too. But certainly any one can understand who can put themselves in Behr's place and time, how difficult that seemed to be to him to do back then! And that's why he and some of his like minded thinkers were hoping somehow the advances in machinery would be able to do that for golf and its architecture in the future--to make it somehow appear to return to at least the perception of the wholly natural even those four necessities of the game!

He said that should be so simply because man is more inclined to accept what nature puts in front of him as an obstacle than he is to accept what some other man creates and puts in front of him as an obstacle!

But anyone can also see the contradiction of what Behr was saying and hoping to preserve, if one believes in the idea of "Manifest Destiny" as it applies to man and nature!

And just maybe that's why it stopped before it ever really began in golf architecture--even as Alan Robertson entered the scene! Maybe that's why as much as many golfers and certainly many architects love TOC, they never really dared to copy it's true theme--playing golf in nature unaltered by man!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

redanman

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #120 on: December 13, 2002, 07:30:43 AM »

Quote
redanman
The photo was useful in illustrating a type of modern course that favors the use of very regular grading, soft flowing curves and machine like precision.


What I think this thread boils down to is this: is there a need to go in one direction or another. Toward the older method of relying more heavily on natural features or this method of creating a stylized man-made view of nature. I know you (and many others) are very fond of courses in both camps. And your post illustrates why we should have both types and why will continue to have both types - people like both. There is no need for a revolution.

What is interesting is that
-there is no need for a revolution as htere is evolution
-vastly divergent styles currently lead to various degrees of reception
-the curently most commercially popular style is at odds with historic golf

Even though there is a modern movement to restore more traditional values to golf course manufacture, it is still a commercial curiosity.  Education is at the forefront and the dollars are not there to support education of the masses.

The paid announcers (No knock on them, they are doing their jobs) push what they are paid to push.  More money behind more projects=more exposure=good.  Common (American, sadly being exported) culture dictates that what is common is good.  What photographs well is what sells.  Massive movement, dramatic visual features, framing (Perhaps the most horrid concept thrust upon us), Feng Shui, THE experience, these are all a detriment.

Creation of courses necessitates soft and green, inappropriate grasses being grown for the sake of "bent grass greens", fluff such as photogenic features all detract from the historic game as originally created.

Do we want to keep the old game?  Can we? We are not using modern techniques to create the new wave, not build upon the original as Thomas and Mackenzie had hoped (Back to hte original post).

Is this a marketing problem?  There is no media firepower in subtlety vs. drama.  The fact is nearly all golf courses need to be sold to someone.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Mike_Cirba

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #121 on: December 13, 2002, 08:04:33 AM »
Tom Paul;

You're correct in stating the The Old Course does not yield visual cues purposefully or with design intent.  It's really sort of amazing standing out there at times at how non-descript everything is...caddies pointing out lines at distant clouds, etc.  I find it amazingly ironic that Jack Nicklaus loves TOC, yet has been one of the champions of the "total visibility" school of design.  

That irony gets to the heart of what you're speaking about.  Recent discussions of Rustic Canyon led to David Moriarty's really good descriptive essay that pretty much concluded that the genius of the course is simply the vague uncertainty one has out there, even after multiple playings, simply because the course itself is so "undefined".  

On that thread, I wrote;

"Is the genius of RC simply the fact that it's so "undefined"?"

"After decades of modern courses that are "tough, yet fair", "visible", and "strategically obvious", Rustic Canyon seems to turn all of those philosophies on their head in a vague, unsettling, uncertain manner that seems to wear as well as any subtly complex puzzle."

I'm making this point not to pick on Nicklaus or once again laud Rustic, but simply to illustrate some of the almost diametrically opposing philsophies at play in modern design. I've attempted to outline those ideas on threads like "Architecture Splits in Two", at that time using C&C's "Hidden Creek" and Ron Fream's "Shore Gate", which are two relatively adjacent courses in south Jersey on similar land forms that couldn't be more different in approach.

So yes, to get back to your original point, TOC is indeed golf in the raw, without visual indicators, and I must confess a preference for that type of approach.  However, I think you might be pushing TOC example too strenuously when you point out that even the earliest American stalwarts of design like Macdonald and others generally eschewed that model in favor of something more man-made and engineered.  

I think the key thing to realize here is that TOC really was just always ideal land for golf, without trees, on sand, and as long as their was enough clearing between gorse bushes to whack a ball out to the river and back, pausing once in awhile to play to targets at regular intervals in the form of holes, not much more was needed.  But, realistically, even that course became much more formalized with time, as it was widened considerably to accommodate busier incoming and outgoing play, and bunkers were dug, and tees and greens stabilized and formalized.  Brand new holes like the 17th were created.

Such evolutionary design differs from the problems the American architects were confronted with.  Even Macdonald's NGLA, which all would agree is a superb site, would almost assuredly not have been feasible as a site where one could "play golf in nature unaltered by man!", as you put it.  

I would imagine that the site as found by Macdonald was probably covered in thick growths of bushes, with other areas of mature trees.  It differed considerably from the natural linksland he saw abroad, yet as best as possible, and with the engineering he had at his disposal, he certainly did try to emulate not only the strategies found on great holes overseas, but also the naturalness, as well.  

I just believe that there aren't many sites available that are so ideal that one can play in nature unaltered by man. (Interestingly, it seems that some of those places in this country might be found right smack dab in the center, but are far away from urban population centers).

I believe the first American architects understood this pretty quickly and decided to build variants of what they knew traditionally on new and different, largely inland terrain.

I also don't believe they were particularly interested in providing much of visual cues, as witnessed by holes like The Alps, or much of what you see (or don't ;)) at Yale, for instance.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »

Matt_Ward

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #122 on: December 13, 2002, 08:43:19 AM »
Mike C:

I agree that many courses today are designed to provide the "Hagstrom map" style of architecture. Point out the particular way the hole goes and all the penalties if you fail to properly play the correct shot.

I thoroughly enjoy courses that are not "matter of fact" in their presentation. In other words, like a Sunday drive, you "discover" all the elements it presents.

Mike, think of the way America operates and how courses tie in with that style. We want "directions." We don't want to "guess." We want some sort of detailed roadmap that will take us to where we want to go with limited differentiation or problems.

Rustic Canyon is an example of a course that is undefined and the nature of its presentation can be vexing to many who want concrete clarity. I want to "discover" elements of a course that doesn't reveal itself so quickly the first time around. RC does that quite well and the analysis presented by David M certainly hit home with me.

I credit many of the classic architects from the past because visual certainty -- while helpful to many golfers -- can usually become nothing more than fast food style design. While it  may meet immediate gratification it often lacks mystery and depth. Who knows -- maybe other new courses like RC can come forward?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Ronan_Branigan

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #123 on: December 13, 2002, 10:17:02 AM »
So why was that natural theme never strictly adhered to, or very rarely so? I think we know why! Right out of the box of architectural creation (man-made features), even the initial thinkers in golf architecture got into a "can't do this, can't do that frame of mind".

TE Paul

Do you believe that the frame of mind of can't was flipped on its head post hiatus into a mindset of I can so I will? Is this basically what 'Manifest Destiny is all about? If so is that the main reason for the lack of 'notable' golf courses that were designed in that period?

I have been to TOC and understand your point on the contradiction in terms that it presents, in that it is meant to be the bible of strategic design but yet it doesn't present the player with visual cues. What a can of worms we could open up about that but I am not sure that I am brave enough to tackle it and be cast in the depths of GCA Hades!

Redanman

Unfortunately alot of what you say is true regarding consumer soceity but think of the challenge and the fun that we could have in trying to change it. Just the qualities that we all wish a good golf course should possess.
A final point of note regarding the consumer soceity is that by in large, in Ireland,  we have resisted the aid of GPS etc...Golf is still seen as a way to while away a couple of hours in good company which I have just done with two elderly golfers in my own club. Unfortunately, golf is now a numbers game in regard to par, yardage, score and distance to the flag. Give me a game of matchplay anyday where you have to judge distance by eye!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

redanman

Re: Is golf architecture on the verge of a revolut
« Reply #124 on: December 13, 2002, 10:31:16 AM »

Quote
redanman

Unfortunately alot of what you say is true regarding consumer soceity but think of the challenge and the fun that we could have in trying to change it. Just the qualities that we all wish a good golf course should possess.
Ronan,

Not to be misunderstood, I have by no means given up the evangelical fight to educate the uninformed.  It is merely observation.  They can be healed! One golfer at a time.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »