Portrush -- the best?

[Robert Thompson]

Having just come back from Ireland on a trip with Ian Andrew and a couple of good friends, I've been reflecting on Royal Portrush, especially in comparison to Country Down. Portrush sits just outside the World Top 10 on Golf's list -- but I thought it was a better, more interesting test of golf than County Down. The only weakness I could find in Portrush was in that the 17th and 18th are not built on as interesting ground as the other 16 holes -- but they are still strong holes in their own right.
Is it just the aesthetic value of County Down that pushes it ahead of Portrush? I actually thought Portrush was more attractive. And Colt's work on the routing and forcing players to hit it well off the tee is unparelleled among the courses I've played that are held in similar esteem.
In fact, Portrush may be the best course I've ever played -- and I've played most of the current Top 10.
Thoughts?

[Matt_Ward]

Robert:

While I am a huge fan of Dunluce I have to say that too much emphasis at the course -- from the time I was there -- is on fairways that are extremely narrow to the point of overkill.

I have no issue with the driver being tested but when you have fairway widths on a number of holes that are in the 20-25 yard wide area -- coupled with having hay like grass immediately off the fairways in a number of instances I feel the course suffers from that approach.

Ask yourself this -- if Dunluce were widened a tad and the hay a bit more cultivated -- how would the reputation / toughenss, call it what one may, be cheapened or lessened.

I personally believe County Down is a better overall test of driving -- there is sufficient room to land the ball without going to the extra unneeded step you see at Dunluce.

Have to say that I disagree with you take on County Down being more of an emphasis on the "aesthetic value of County Down that pushes it ahead of Portrush." County Down balances the interplay between reward / penalty without taking things to extreme.

I'd like to see Dunluce with a bit more width because given daily weather patterns that blow through the site heaven help those who are having one of those days when they are steering the ball and praying for the short grass.

[Paul_Turner]

Robert

Portrush definitely has the better greens.  Not wildly contoured but just right for a links nonetheless.  But I reckon County Down's setting is unsurpassed.  Portrush's best holes are nicely balanced through the nines: better than County Down.   County Down might have one or two more all world holes.  

The twisting of the holes on the Dunluce (more so than County Down) does demand precise driving.  And if the fairways are narrow...

Did you an Ian get some nice photos?  Did you play the Valley?

[TEPaul]

Matt:

That's funny---I don't remember any 20-25 yard wide fairways at Portrush and that's probably because there aren't any. What there is there is some blindness off some angles on tee shots and some of the holes have a running ridge on one or both sides of some fairways. They say you can tend to be on the high side of inaccuracy off the tee sometimes and perhaps that combined with the fact you took some wrong lines with some of those semi-blind fairways at Portrush must've given you the impression some of those fairways are 20-25 yards wide.  

20 yard wide fairways are even narrower than most US Open fairways and there's no question at all there're no LZs on Dunluce that narrow.

Robert:

Portrush sits just outside the top 100 on the world rankings?? I thought both RCD and Portrush were both in the top 10-15 in the world. I can't stand these magazine rankings but in my own personal world ranking Portrush and RCD are very close to each other right around the top 10-15. The last time I looked at my own personal ranking I think one was just ahead of Fernandina Municipal and the other just behind it, all right around the top 10-15 in the world.

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

You need to recharge your memory banks. With the exception of the holes nearest to the clubhouse -- the 1st, 17th and 18th the fairways are quite narrow for any number of the remaining holes there. Ok -- so let's say for arguments sakes they are 25-30 yards. Wow -- that's really wide.

C'mon Tom -- let's get real -- the architecture is so good at Dunluce there's no need to play the overly penal route with narrow fairways and then hayfields immediately next to each of them. County Down is much more realistic in this regard than Dunluce and suffers no fools because of this presentation.

Please illuminate for me who the famous "they" are that you dropped into your initial comments? Inquiring minds want to know.

[TEPaul]

Matt:

Why don't we just get real and admit that there's probably not an LZ out there that's less than 30 yards wide?  

We should also probably get even more real and just admit you had a bad driving day and of course the most logical thing to do is to blame it on the golf course by pertending the fairways are about ten yards narrower than they really are at their narrowest.  

"They" are a few of the people who've played golf with you when your name and opinions on courses came up around me. All of them said in their opinion you try to hit that ball ridiculously hard and as is true with most any golfer who tries that their accuracy is bound to really suffer.  

[David Druzisky]

I agree with Matt.  It seems the course was tight and difficult off the tee - especially on the day my Dad and I played it last year.  Unfortunately it was the worst weather day we had on our two week trip and that really made for difficult play.  The rough was really thick - even that near the fairways.  I am not sure that even if I knew more about the proper lines of play off the tees that it would make much of a difference.  The margin for error was so minimal.  I wonder if the thick rough is an irrigation issue/choice or has it always been that way depending on the weather.  It was this way and I think last year was not overly wet?

Even with these aspects in mind it still may have been the best overall when it came to the quality of the golf.  RCD was more aesthetically stimulating to me.  I could play both any time over and over.

[Paul_Turner]

I remember Potrush having a prickly, low growing, plant in the rough that was extremely difficult to hack out of.

[TEPaul]

Matt & David:

Well then I guess Portrush just narrowed their fairways down about ten yards and grew the rough just off the fairways extra long since I was there right around 9/11/2001. Matt's response that I need to recharge my memory batteries is just dumb. I recognize super narrow fairways just as fast as the next guy. What is fairly narrow on many of the holes of Dunluce is the basic topography on some of those holes. There are plenty of ridgelines on one side or both sides of some of those holes one has to play down that are pretty narrow topographically. Maybe that's what got you.

Paul Turner said:

"I remember Potrush having a prickly, low growing, plant in the rough that was extremely difficult to hack out of."

Paul:

That's what I remember too. I don't remember seeing any of these so-called 'hayfields' that Matt Ward mentioned at Dunluce. I've never seen any "hayfields" anywhere that were capable of ripping my trousers clean off me the way the rough on one hole at Dunluce did. I played the last 4-5 holes completely bare-assed naked and bleeding! And then my partner from GMGC who's originally Irish got hit flush in the stomach on #17 from a ball off some tee on the Valley course. I tell it was a damn war out there on Dunluce but we survived to fight it another day (the next day) when the wind was blowing so hard I got some kind of haircut after the Sherlock Holmes hat I had tied under my chin damn nearly strangled me.


BTW, Shinnecock's fairways have been widened back out to what they were before the course went into the last Open.

[Robert Thompson]

Gents: Of course I meant Portrush sits outside the top 10 -- 12th currently. And I'd agree with Matt that some -- though far from all -- of the fairways were pretty tight. There were several exceptions.
I can't judge the course based on how thick the fescue was -- I don't think it would lose a thing if it were lessened. That said, I'm talking about judging the course, the fairways, the greens, the setting.

Paul: I can very much see what you are saying about County Down, but I actually think Portrush's setting is every bit as good. Mountain backdrops don't do much for me and Portrush does get closer to the see. The greens are remarkable and the I think the best par three (Calamity), bests what County Down has to offer, which I found good, but not great.

[Robert Thompson]

Paul and Tom: At least when we were there last week, the fescue was the thickest and nastiest we played all week. County Down paled in comparison -- in other words, if you missed a fairway at Portrush, you wouldn't likely find your ball, but at County Down you could. Not sure that has any impact on the way I see the two courses, though.

[ForkaB]

Those of you who haven't had the pleasure of playing with Tom Paul should know that to him a 10 yard wide fairway looks as wide as a football field.  The last time he was in the rough was in 1962 on the North Shore of Long Island with Missy Leatherbottom, of the Tuxedo Park Leatherbottoms, and he wasn't playing golf.......

[Ian Andrew]

The rough was very heavy at Portrush, whereas at Royal County Down it was lighter in places. I watched a machine "cultivate" and remove the top of the rough on the 6th hole at RCD while we were there. I would assume Portrush does not have this practice.

Paul,

The plant is either blackberry or a form of gooseberry (I have the scratches to prove it).

Tom Paul and Matt

The *7th* (had wrong hole before) was 20-25 yards across, and rediculous in a four club wind. The rest of the tee shots were very tough but reasonable, with nothing under 30 yards that I can remeber.

Sean,

If the pond was not on the 17th at RCD, would it still be a poor hole?


Just a rumour, but I hear a young Canadian architect drove the 5th last week

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

There is nothing like saying one of the worlds best courses is second best in its own land. I love the Dunlace course and both it and RCD have weak finishes. When it is all said and done if i was to only get to play one again it would RCD. It is the better overall course.

[Bill Gayne]

I maybe in the minority but my preference would be for both Portrush and Ballybunion over County Down. All three are great golf courses so it's really splitting hairs. If I split the hairs: Best routing: Ballybunion. Best greens: Portrush. Best start: RCD. Best finish: Ballybunion. Best par threes: Portrush. The course I enjoyed the most with multiple playings: Portrush.

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

I can appreciate your take on the fairway widths at Dunluce but consider this -- when you have a place that specializes in having haylike grass immediately off the fairways and a tiny strip of secondary rough it becomes more of a "gotcha" defense mechanism unworthy of the high caliber tour de force layout that embodies one's time there.

Frankly, courses that overdose on rough are usually ones that are somewhat deficient or use this tactic as a catch-all because of some basless insecurity.

When you calculate 3-4 club winds blowing routinely through the property I see no reason why a good bit more width could not be included. It certainly would not drop the pedigree of the course -- in fact -- I believe it would add to it.

If and when Dunluce does that I'll be happy to return. Right now -- I would still opt for County Down as the preferred layout between the two for me.

[Gerry B]

Robert:

Very good post. As great as Portrush is - IMHO RCD has a slight edge -a little more eye candy / production value. Also as previously posted Portrush has a couple of weak holes compared to the all world ones  -which probably cost the course a top 10 ranking.  

When discussing  the top 20 in the world -10, 11,12, 13 and even 19, 20 who cares -to make that list a course has to be pretty special. Merion East is just outside the top 10 on most lists and I would put it in my top 5. Conversely Royal Melbourne -as good as it is which is on most top 10 lists would not be included on mine.

Isn't personal opinion a beautiful thing?

[Paul_Daley]

Lets not get confused between original design intent and what has evolved to "adopt the pose" of RCD and Royal Portrush, respectively.

The fairways are certainly more narrow at RP, but in part because club policy has led to then being edged in over time -not necessarily because Harry S. Colt decreed it. Additionally, the ball more often seems to slide away at RP.

RCD and RP are very different links; the one overflowing
with elements of 'blindness', the other more straightaway. Portmarnock and Ballybunion Old, too, have many enthusiasts prepared to push their claims. Most well-travelled golfers, however, agree that the two Northern Ireland links are the finest in all-Ireland. My preference is for RCD, but only by a narrow squeak.  

Off topic, but what a super hole RP's 200 yard par-3 sixth is, appropriately named "Harry Colt". RP's fourteenth (Calamity) gets the lions share of par-3 acclaim, and it is v.good loaded with historic shots, but give me RP's sixth any time.

 

[Matt_Ward]

TEPaul:

I'll have you know I hit it fairly straight given the distances involved. Maybe the folks shooting the breeze with you need to assess what's lacking in their games before opining on others.

Let's get back to the task at hand.

Gents:

Paul Daley cut through the mindless clutter with his insightful comment that it was the club itself which has moved in the direction of the grass growing in to the degree you see now. I can't confirm that but if true would clearly be a major move away from the original intent on the H S Colt effort there.

Frankly, I don't see how you play a place like Dunluce on a daily basis -- with 3/4 club wind being the pattern and facing plenty of fairways that are extremely narrow in a number of areas and then also include the hay like grass issues that Paul T mentioned. I mean does "either or" golf at that penal a level really help bring out the sheer details the design provides? I don't think so.

For the average golfer the place has got to be a nightmare if anything close to the wheels coming off happens.

[Ian Dalzell]

Matt Ward,
There is absolutely no problem "playing the course on a daily basis".  I grew up playing it a few days a week, and it only serves a reminder that you have to keep your wits about you at all times - like all great courses (PV, Merion et al) there is very little rest for the mind when taclking the links at Portrush.

Yes the fairways are tight in spots, but so was Merion, and I didn't hear you complaining about those.  The fairways on holes 1, 4, 5, 8, 9, 12, 13, 15, 16, 17 and 18 are not "too narrow".  Yes, #2 and #7 particularly are narrow given the difficultly of the dogleg, but golf should demand something of you with every club in the bag.

Portrush demands that you drive it straight, hit accurate irons (or the ball will catch the slopes away from the green) and the putting surfaces are very interesting and varied.

I'm sorry, but I have to disagree with your assessment.  And as far as weak holes go, if you can find more than 2 for me I would be VERY surprised!!!!!!!!  That means 90% of the course is world class, which is why it ranked accordingly.  

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

Glad you can join us -- help me out with something -- Paul Daley mentioned how the club itself opted to go with the narrower dimensions than what was there originally. I did not have the opportunity to personally know the course prior to my time there in 2003 so I can't comment upon what "was there." Maybe you can.

Can you explain to me why the need to pinch in fairways to the point where bowling alley play is required on more than a few holes? Especially when you have hay-like grass that encroaches just off the tiny sliver of secondary rough.

Since many people here on GC favor width because it enhances playing angles -- I wonder how such an approach by the club enhances and brings more to life than original Colt approach if indeed there was one where fairways were a bit wider.

Ian -- let's get this straight -- I have issue with any course that goes heavy towards the narrow -- bowling alley approach for fairways with hay occupying the areas just off the fairways. Whether it be Merion, as you included, or others serves no real purpose to me. You can make driving demanding without going full bore towards the "gotcha" dimension. Keep in mind that's something even the folks at the USGA have gotten understand when preparing layouts for our national championship.

Let me lay to rest another point you seem to imply with all your wasted exclamation points -- I like Dunluce very much -- it's a superb piece of property and the routing is clearly well reasoned with a number of exciting holes. However, among the renonwed links that I have played I can't remember a course that favored such a penal approach to driving. I compare Dunluce to RCD and the model that the latter follows still puts a premium on driving while respecting the fact that recovery --  more than just the garden variety of whacking out a SW from the hay -- is part and parcel of golf.

[Ian Dalzell]

Matt
I'm sorry to have wasted all those exclamation points, but I get so excited sometimes when I write!

Regarding the clubs policy of bringing in the hay, I cannot offer any input - I was not aware of any specific attempt to narrow the fairways.  Certainly they have not been narrowed significantly over the years - the course that I played last year is the same course I played in 1985 and 1990 and 1995 (other than a few new tees added on hole 2, 5, 15, 16 and 17).

I freely admit that there is a premium on accuracy at the club, but unlike you I have no problem with that.  During the recent North of Ireland Tournament at RPGC, one amatuer shot 63, so don't tell me it is overly penal.  It demands good golf, and it asks that you think before pulling out your driver - what is wrong with that.  
I'm sorry, but you are from NJ and don't have the first clue about "3-4 club winds blowing routinely about the property".  You neglect to add that when the wind is right you can drive within 50 yards of the 1st hole, or hit 3 wood 8 iorn into #2 and I could go on and on.

Unless you have played multiple rounds there, I am sorry to say that your opinions should be taken with a large grain of salt.  They must be viewed as limited in their vaildity and that of an outsider looking in.

[Jason Mandel]

Matt
I'm sorry, but you are from NJ and don't have the first clue about "3-4 club winds blowing routinely about the property".  

If that's not one of the great GCA quotes of all time, I don't know what is.

[THuckaby2]

I don't know, Jason - I'm rather partial to:

Matt
I'm Unless you have played multiple rounds there, I am sorry to say that your opinions should be taken with a large grain of salt.  They must be viewed as limited in their vaildity and that of an outsider looking in.

If ever the phrase "hoisted on his own petard" were apt, it's now.

 

[Matt_Ward]

Ian:

The issue is not just about my concerns on the narrowness of the fairways -- please understand it's an issue raised by more than me. My analysis of any course -- doesn't rise or fall simply because of self interest. If that's your take on my comments then you are frankly in the deep left field seats on that point.

Paul raised a point that the movement to narrowing was internal and beyond the genesis of what Colt envisioned. Your reply is you are not aware of any movement afoot -- but then quickly flip flop by saying definitively that the fairways have not been significantly narrowed. Which one is it? And define for me the word significantly?

Geeze Ian -- thanks for the keen insight on having to play multiple rounds -- try to enlighten me -- how many rounds does it take to qualify to pass on comments on any course? Is it five, ten, fifty, a hundred? I guess when people make comments on Bethpage Black -- a course I have played no less than 200 rounds on -- they should hereby be disqualified because they not played the requisite number (to be determined) before commenting. I'll be sure to tell them the Ian rule applies.

Thanks for telling me what I'm capable in understanding  about 3-4 club wind. You're right Ian -- I just started playing the game yesterday and need someone like you to tell guys like me from Jersey what they know and don't know about golf and wind velocity.

For what it's worth -- allow me to point out something about me. I may live in Jersey -- a great state for golf as you know -- but I play the sheer bulk of my golf throughout the USA and abroad. I play plenty of courses annually and have for a number of years. I have played in very windy areas like Vegas and the Midwest as well as across the pond -- I also know the nature of when courses like Dunluce -- allow the hayfields to encroach so close to the fairways that the meaning of recovery is thrwarted. Go over to County Down and see the manner by which they prepare the famed Championship 18. Poor driving will be penalized there accordingly but not to the point where the golfer's head is routinely chopped off with another garden variety whack out of the hay with the obligatory SW.

The day I was at Dunluce the prevailing wind was blowing and it was at no less than 25-30 mph and on a steady basis. When you mention downwind conditions you make it sound like such a situation is always advantageous to the golfer. As you likely know -- heavy downwind conditions can take
off spin on the golf ball and cause any number of issues -- some -- depending upon the hole encountered -- as severe as playing into a headwind.

Regarding multiple rounds as the benchmark in making one eligible to rate / assess courses -- I have no issue with a one time visit provided the person posting such can make a sound case and use appropriate examples where necessary. Sometimes the person making the argument of multiple visits uses such an argument as to render any other opinions as being groundless. Sometimes people who see the same portrait time after time after time may not see the flaws that may be present. No doubt it helps to see a course on multiple visits to assess the wind blowing from different directions, to name just one item.

Clearly, the person playing a course one time should disclose the fact -- as I did -- and the people reading it can make their own judgement as to the soundness of the critique versus that of others. It also helps to have someone who has been to the site in question on a recent basis to reflect what is the actual state now versus that of years ago.