Government gone wild

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Here is an article on the 2014 financial report:

http://www.theolympian.com/2015/04/13/3676639/rising-revenues-at-chambers-bay.html

[Richard Choi]

Man, how did I miss this thread?

BTW, I completely agree with WHC. Spending this kind of public money on a course that charges $200/round is obscene.

[John Kavanaugh]

Please. You are losing sight of the value we all gain by knowing it is there and having the freedom to enjoy it if we choose. I'll never go to Yellowstone but I love living in a country where I can.  

[Garland Bayley]

Man, how did I miss this thread?

BTW, I completely agree with WHC. Spending this kind of public money on a course that charges $200/round is obscene.

I disagree. I think they did the right thing.

[Ben Sims]

I'm stating this because it seems missed; there's a lot more value to the Chambers Bay property than just golf. It's arguably the best park in the Puget Sound.

[Tom_Doak]

This was interesting to stumble upon.

Bill:

Yes, indeed.  But will we ever know the answer to whether the project was a good investment for the county?  I guess it depends on one's perspective.  I don't think the course has been profitable so far, but it's peanuts in comparison to some of the taxpayer-funded sports stadiums across America.

or other "job creation" welfare schemes ..............

Come to think of it, they should have tied the pensions of the local government workers to the success of the project ... at least then we would only have one side of the local government argument to complain about, instead of two!

[Tim Leahy]

Too bad they are not getting those golf cart rental fees they mentioned. Maybe they would be making money instead of losing it.

[Steve Lang]

  Maybe they weren't delusional... time will tell.  Someone needs to bump this thread in 5 years

[Dan Herrmann]

Carl Rogers - like the local government giving tax incentives to attract companies that just move their offices and lay off their existing staff?

[Dan Herrmann]

Back on topic- I prefer cheap, fun municipal golf.  To me, the latter-day example that I love is Wintonbury Hills in CT.   A full year of golf for 17 and under is $500.   My "club", Sheridan Park in metro Buffalo was $75 per year for < 21 (in 1980!)

[Jonathan Mallard]

Carl Rogers - like the local government giving tax incentives to attract companies that just move their offices and lay off their existing staff?

Also, the ones that file bankruptcy after securing 7 figure grants.

http://www.richmondbizsense.com/2015/06/08/hdl-files-bankruptcy/

[Matthew Essig]

I'm stating this because it seems missed; there's a lot more value to the Chambers Bay property than just golf. It's arguably the best park in the Puget Sound.

+1

Chambers Bay is within the massive Chambers Creek Regional Park. There's so much more to the property than just a golf course.

[Garland Bayley]

Too bad they are not getting those golf cart rental fees they mentioned. Maybe they would be making money instead of losing it.

They are making good money. They don't need to lose money by doing the cart thing and ruining the course.

[Bill Shamleffer]

It is very easy to see the $21,000,000 number and think the county was recklessly spending money.  But as some have pointed out on this site, and as can be seen in some internet aerial photos and the County's website, Chambers Bay is a park with not just a golf course, but also a waterfront park, hiking trails, beach, location and facilities for outdoor concerts and stage events, among other items for public use at this park.

If I use the $21,000,000 figure, and if county bonds paid 3.5%, the county could pay $2,000,000 per year and have the bond paid off in about 14 years.  And using a 5% bond rate, the bond is paid off in about 16 years.

If only 1/4th of the 832,000 County residents use the park just 1 time per year, their portion of the $2,000,000 annual bond payback is slightly less than $10.00.  A $10.00 fee per year per person using the park is a GREAT deal for the citizens.

I realize that there is a lot of oversimplifications on this initial - very rough budget guestimation - but it begins to put the $21,000,000 amount into a more understandable perspective of how this impacts the citizens financially and how it benefits the citizens.  And this is a county with a total annual budget af about $929,000,000.  So if this $21,000,000 was amortized over about 15 years, the annual pay back is only about 1/5th of 1% of the annual budget.  And this is a capital expense with long term benefits.

Finally, the County has two other golf courses with peak rates of under $30-$50 depending on the course, leaving this very high fee public course as a tourist attraction, and an option for a those who want to spend some high-end fees for a special golf experience a few times per year (probably not much more than a special day at the casino, a premium concert event, or a couple outings at a major league sporting event).

I do not present this analysis with any intent to prove why the financials on this course are all good, but rather to just offer some perspective of the financial impacts in relation to the county population, and finances.  It is still an opportunity cost that must be weighed against the benefits and payback of other uses of this expense; and must be weighed against the pros & cons purposes of a municipal government providing for its citizens.

[A.G._Crockett]

I am the farthest thing from an anti-government reactionary, and I believe deeply in the ability of good government, whether local, state, or national to solve problems and provide services that the private sector cannot or will not.  I also believe deeply that the impact and cost benefit analysis of a project, public or private, has to be evaluated in a time frame that allows initial investment to bear fruit.  Investment isn't a get rich quick scheme, after all.

That said, if I was a golfer in Pierce County, I can't imagine that ANY rationale for a $209 greens fee at a municipal course would be in the least bit satisfying to me.  What the other munis in the area charge isn't relevant.  That the course is in the middle of a large park with other attractions isn't relevant.  That the U.S. Open will be there isn't relevant. 

All that is relevant is that my country built a golf course that I might be able to afford to play once a year.  Or once in a lifetime.  And I think that is wrong.  It would be wrong if it was a hospital at which I couldn't get treatment, a road on which I couldn't drive, or whatever. 

Good government is, or at least should be, about inclusion and the public good, not exclusivity.  This isn't it, and I don't give a damn if next week is the greatest U.S. Open in history.

[A.G._Crockett]

Resident green fees from the Golfweek Top Municipal Courses list (weekdays):

1. Bethpage Black   $65

2. Chambers Bay     $209

3. Butterfield Trail    $45

4. Torrey Pines South    $61

5. TPC Scottsdale    $49-$149 (with an annual pass; rates vary depending on time of year)

6.  Arrowhead Pointe    $39

7.  Pinion Hills    $27

I could go on, but you get the idea.  Some of these rates, as many of you know, can be made even more affordable with some sort of an annual pass or a discount card, and there are Senior rates, twilight rates, and so on.  So either ALL of the municipalities are wrong, or Pierce County has gone nuts.

[Garland Bayley]

I was surprised at A.G.'s rate for Chambers Bay. Apparently they have boosted the rates very significantly for this the US Open year. In the past the most I have ever paid is $109, and I am not a local. In the early years, picking the time of day could get you on for much less than that. My memory may not be to great, but I think I have paid as low as $69.

[A.G._Crockett]

I was surprised at A.G.'s rate for Chambers Bay. Apparently they have boosted the rates very significantly for this the US Open year. In the past the most I have ever paid is $109, and I am not a local. In the early years, picking the time of day could get you on for much less than that. My memory may not be to great, but I think I have paid as low as $69.

I had been told the same thing, but those lower rates don't currently show up on the website.  Perhaps they will return after the Open.

And if that is the case, it is pretty clearly price gouging, and no different or less criminal than if it were done by a private business taking advantage of customers during or after a disaster.  That makes it much, much worse than if the $209 was the "normal" rate, down a BIG step on the morality hierarchy.

My expectation is that government will prevent price gouging on chainsaws or drinking water after a hurricane, or for gasoline during a shortage; not that it will price gouge for golf just because it can.

[Daryl David]

From the 2014 financial report:

• Average green fees hit $109, up from the previous high of $91 in 2008.

Must be a lot of comps for the average to be less than half the posted rate.

[Carl Nichols]

From the 2014 financial report:

• Average green fees hit $109, up from the previous high of $91 in 2008.

Must be a lot of comps for the average to be less than half the posted rate.

That was last year.  If I had to bet, they jacked up the rates across the board this year because of the US Open.  [Like Garland, I don't remember paying anything as steep as they're currently advertising.]

The Post-US Open rates for July 13 through Aug 31 are:
Non-Resident:   $275
Washington Res or PNGA Member:   $215
Pierce Co. Res or Military:  $169
Chambers Bay Golf Club:   $149

[Richard Choi]

Last year's rate was significantly lower. Most of the year, the local residents' rate was not much more than $100.

There was also an annual pass that let you play as much as you want for $3600 (which I used). There were many people who played 200+ rounds using that pass. That drove down the average quite a bit.

There is no longer an annual pass offered. This alone will probably raise the average by 20 or 30%.

[Ben Sims]

Whether using the Club, Military, or Pierce Ct rate, I've never paid over $120 to play the golf course. Granted, my last round was in February and tees times were never really hard to come by until around early March of this year. For a new course with a pretty big nut to make in a market with ZERO great golf to play, this is a good number. However, the $209 number was perverse and a contributing reason that I didn't play any leading up to course closure.

That said, my wife and I use the property an average of 3 times a week for things not related to golf. It affords us easy access to the Sound for multiple water activities. There's a dog park, a huge green space on both ends of the property, a decent restaurant with the best view in town, and a 3-mile track for running, walking, etc. They host movies in the park on a huge inflatable screen on summer evenings. On sunny days for most the year, parking is difficult to come by.

My list of "government gone wild" projects gets pretty deep before getting to the Chambers Bay project. I understand that this website revolves around golf and is populated by people from all over the world. That's why I think it's difficult for many to accurately assess the utility of the project.

[Joe Hancock]

The county runs its own restaurant too? How do those prices compare to the rest of town?

[Ben Sims]

The county runs its own restaurant too? How do those prices compare to the rest of town?

Prices are almost the same or slightly lower than Boathouse 19, the only other restaurant in U.P. that is comparable from a food/location perspective.

I have no idea if Pierce County runs the restaurant. I would assume its all rolled into Kemper, who reports to Pierce Ct.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Nothing really offends me about the idea of govt. trying to be like private biz.

That said, I know spending money in the public realm is different, and it is unusual and rare to undertake this kind of project. 

But, if anything went wrong, there was only one possible exit strategy - going back for more public funds.No doubt they went "all in" and the only way for it to work was to secure the US Open, which I think was the plan all along.