Why not build...

[Phil_the_Author]

...a championship golf course that is specifically designed to test the women's game?

Build it with the hazards in place for women just as is done for the men. Build it so that the course could be set-up to meet the demands for strategic play that should define a national woman's champion. Set the championship tees to where the LPGA plays from, and then, when it is finished, put in tees for the men.

How diferent would this course be?  

[Joe Hancock]

Philip,

I had a bunch of thoughts run through my head as I read and reread your post. Things like "Cayman", "What the hell?" and "Why?". But, obviously all those thoughts are/ were sarcastic in nature.

I think what you would end up with might resemble many of the older courses that haven't been lengthened over the years. Of course, it would have to be shaped to resemble a TPC course....

Joe

[Jason Topp]

Phillip - it seems to me that many of the golden age courses are filling this exact niche.  Interlachen was a perfect site for the Solheim Cup, even though it is too short for a modern tournament.

[Jimmy Muratt]

It seems like there are numerous sites already which fit your criteria.  

You said, "Build it with the hazards in place for women just as is done for the men."   The best courses of the modern era are all designed to be played by golfers of different skill levels, hence the different sets of tees.  If a golf course is well designed, the hazards in play for the scratch player who is playing the 7100 yard tees, would also come into play for higher handicapper or woman who is playing the 6600 yard tees.  

Of course, most women's tees at courses are far too shot for today's pros, so therefore they'd probably play the second set from the back, in the area of 6600 yards.

[Rob_Waldron]

Have you lost your mind???

Golf courses are designed and built for the masses of golfers who are willing to support them. Unfortunately women golfers do not constitute sufficient numbers to support a golf course. I do not know about you, but i am not running out to the LPGA course in Daytona to play a round of golf and buy a shirt that I can wear at my Club when I get home.

[Scott Witter]

Phillip,

Find me a client who is willing to build such a course setup only for women and consider it done.  I really don't think any of the architects on this site would attempt to only set their courses up for the men, I know I don't and never would.  My clients are in the business of ringing the cash register and if our projects aren't taking advantage of all possible golfers to play, we haven't done our job.

As you say, "how different would this course be?" not very different at all, that's the point if we do our work correctly.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

Phil:

Answer: Probably something similar to Bethpage Red. As we learned at the outing, a Women's Open may be in cards for this great course.

Steve

[Tom_Doak]

Philip:

A good course for women pros would look very much like a good course for low-handicap men ... there are a lot of courses designed for that.  If you really wanted to cater to the women, you could make the targets narrower, and not make it too difficult around the greens, which seems to be their primary weakness.  But maybe they just need a championship course which forces them to get better at the short game!

There is still a Ladies' National Golf Club in Toronto which is built exclusively for women members.  Now THAT is a study in contrasts ... doglegs at 200 yards from the tee and such.  It works very well for the target audience (and the course is still played mostly by women, although men are allowed as guests), but a long-hitting male would be confounded by some of the holes.

[Bill Shotzbarger]

Has anyone played LPGA International in Daytona? What's it like?

[SPDB]

Such a course was built in Long Island, Women's National Golf Club, before it was absorbed into The Creek.

[Phil_the_Author]

I find the responses to my posed question interesting. Consider these responses and then look once again at my question:

"Have you lost your mind??? Golf courses are designed and built for the masses of golfers who are willing to support them. Unfortunately women golfers do not constitute sufficient numbers to support a golf course."
                           and
"Find me a client who is willing to build such a course setup only for women and consider it done."

I didn't even SUGGEST that this course was to be for women ONLY; in fact I stated that, "Set the championship tees to where the LPGA plays from, and then, when it is finished, put in tees for the men."

This was suggested, "Such a course was built in Long Island, Women's National Golf Club, before it was absorbed into The Creek." and this, "There is still a Ladies' National Golf Club in Toronto which is built exclusively for women members."

Again, these clubs were designed for women members ONLY. I am not suggesting that.

Note what Tom Doak said about the Ladies National in Toronto, "Now THAT is a study in contrasts ... doglegs at 200 yards from the tee and such."

Isn't it obvious that a course that is designed for women.s play can be made to present a nearly unique challenge for the men's game. Tom continued with this observation, "It works very well for the target audience (and the course is still played mostly by women, although men are allowed as guests), but a long-hitting male would be confounded by some of the holes."

Scott wrote, "As you say, "how different would this course be?" not very different at all, that's the point if we do our work correctly." I think he is incorrect when you carefully consider what I am proposing. The great golf courses are designed to test the play of men first and foremost. This means that hazard types and placements, angles of play, green entrances, etc... are built around how far men hit the golf ball and then shorter tees are put in for women.

If a course is first built around how far women hit golf balls and THEN tees put in to elongate the course for men's play, would the finished product reflect, as Jason states, "many of the golden age courses are filling this exact niche." I don't think it would prove to be the case. I think if you take a careful look at the great golden age courses, you will find that the shot angles and challenges in their original designs would not would not be the same if they were designed for the women's player of today.

I believe that there is a need for at least one truly great course designed for to serve as the ultimate test for that very large portion of those who play the game. I think it could be a nearly unique course and that someone will look at this question I propose from outside of the box and realize the potential that is there.

[Tom_Doak]

Phil:

Women pros hit the ball 250-270 yards with their drivers now.  That's the distance we were using for the good male golfer's drive for a lot of years, so the placement of driving hazards wouldn't be any different if you designed a championship women's course, as far as I can think.

You tell us how it would be different.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

Are you sure you don't mean Glen Head ?

Morris County also started out as a Women's course.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom Doak:

My brother caddied on the LPGA Tour for many years.

He'd tell you, only the BEST women pros hit their drivers 250-270 yards. There are still a lot of LPGA players - perhaps the majority - that can't hit the ball that far in their dreams!

[SPDB]

SPDB,

Are you sure you don't mean Glen Head ?

Patrick,
Yes, I'm quite sure I don't mean Glen Head.

[A_Clay_Man]

Phillip, I'm not sure designing for a specific sex is wise. First of all, it sounds so game like. And second of all, there but for a hormone wash go I.

Golf should teach us that the we are all human beings, and if you want to compete, it can be done on sewer caps by anyone, regardless of occupation, gender, creed, religious affiliation etc. etc..

[Scott Witter]

Phillip,

I have to agree with Tom Doak on this one, though he hasn't said anything different, he has stated the obvious and I too would be interested to hear from you how this course setup as you describe would be different? Once again, if we do our work correctly and consider how all caliber of golfers play and experience the game, then we have designed the course such that it appropriately challenges everyone, from all points of reference, at least that is our goal.

With my work, I approach every aspect of design by considering how golfers with a 30 handicap down to the scratch player will execute their game.  I can't recall the last time I deliberately set up a new project or reworked an existing course to specifically suit "the men"  If I leave an opening fronting a green complex, all golfers have the choice or the ability as applicable, to run the ball onto the putting surface, carry over a hazard I have placed, pitch their ball to the front and use the contour to get close and so on.  I don't see where I have catered to "how far men hit the golf ball" by incorporating such design elements and thinking, but perhaps you are seeing something I haven't for the past 15 years?

[wsmorrison]

I'm pretty sure that Women's National Golf and Tennis Club was nominally changed to Glen Head.  WNGTC opened in 1924 due to the efforts of Marion Hollins. Devereux Emmet was the architect and construction supervisor but Macdonald and Raynor consulted with Hollins and as a result the course had several virtual copies of holes from the UK.  The course played to 5875 yards with a par of 74.  The membership (400) was filled before the course was completed.

The club merged with The Creek in 1941 with the combination called The Cedar Creek Club.  WNGTC was called the Cedar Course and the other the Creek Course.  The economies of scale (only one tennis pro and one golf pro for both facilities) enabled dues to be reduced.  The differences in the mortgages ($340,000 for The Creek and $19,000 for WNGTC) was a cause of problems and in 1948 the merger was dissolved.  After this, The Creek was once again on its own and revived its former name.  I believe Glen Head became the name of the former Women's National after this.  It is rumored that Flynn did some redesign work at some point for the Glen Head course, maybe when he was doing work at The Creek.  No records of this have been found to date.

[Tom_Doak]

Jeff M:  That was then, this is now.  

I realize there are some players on the LPGA Tour who can't hit it 250 yards consistently, just like there are still a bunch of guys on the PGA Tour who only hit it 265.  But they are in the minority now, and dwindling fast.  Mike Davis at the USGA gave me those numbers for where the women will be hitting it in the Curtis Cup next year:  230-250 carry.

[Phil_the_Author]

Tom & Scott,

I don't know if it would be different. The reason I am asking is because I have never heard of anyone designing a golf course with women players specifically in mind.

The closest that anyone comes is what is usually done, the putting in of a set of forward tees. The thought of startegic hazard placement for the women's game never enters the design process.

Actually what got me interested in considering this thought was a comment made to me by a lady member at East lake 2 years ago. We were speaking about the renovation done by Rees Jones and she said after he was done, the course was "more playable for women, both strategically and enjoyably."

So let me ask it in a different way. How can courses be designed so that on the same 18 holes there is a distinct challenge for male players and one that is distinctly challengable for the women's game? A set of forward tees on every hole doesn't do this. Wouldn't hazard placements need to be different because of the relative difference in the games between men and women?

[Tony_Muldoon]

I was posting this and then read the origianal post again so I know you are asking about champiosip courses but..

Adjacent to the more famous club since 1902 there has been Suningdale Ladies designed by Harry Colt to a length of 3616 and a SSS of 60.  Today this would probably be an 'executive course'. Has anyone played it it and can you say if Harry gave different options?

I can see from a marketing angle if the LPGA decided to build a course and put one of their majors (or the Solheim Cup) on it for a few years you could create a demand for a niche market of low handicap women golfers.  If it was unique it could prove to be a financial success.

[Jeff_Mingay]

Tom,

I'm guessing the best Curtis Cuppers are better players, and longer hitters than an avg. LPGA Tour pro  

[Dan Herrmann]

When I played at Pacific Dunes, I visited a lot of the 'ladies' tees because I was playing with my wife.   PD, for one, has some really great sightlines from the up tees and some are in really interesting places from an architectural standpoint.  It's obvious that TD didn't just give the gals a shorter hole at PD.

Same observation at Bandon Trails too...  In fact, our caddie (who was awesome) hadn't yet looped for a lady at BT, and we had to go scouting for some of the ladies tees.

If you want fun on some cold November day, try playing from the front tees.  It sure helps with strategy and short game.

[Steve Lapper]

Phillip,

   We  (Kelly Blake Moran, Peter Zurkow, and I...along with the help of Karen Moraghan and Paul Ramina) are doing just that. As some here may already know, we've won the "beauty contest" to build a municipal property, daily-fee course in Old Bridge, NJ. The site, a wonderful pair of rolling ex-farmland fields, is only 12 minutes from Staten Island and 35-40 minutes from Manhattan.

   Rather than get into all the details, and there are many....I'll properly defer to Kelly and let him describe it to GCA. It won't be too tough, nor too easy with fewer-than-normal bunkers and larger-than-normal greens that will be naturally positioned amid extensive runoff and chipping areas. The ladies angle will be considerably more than the usual afterthought and hopefully it'll quickly evolve into a USGA Womens event location.

  Nicely topical post so I thought I'd let the cat-out-of-the-bag now that the project is officially ours.

[scott_wood]

Steve...interesting to be involved in!...awaiting with anticipation Kelly's start of a thread