[Patrick_Mucci]

JES II,

I say it is bad architecture if the driver is taken out of the hands of a player on a par 4 or par 5, short or long.

Reread Tom Doak's post again.  On the hole that Doak references at Crystal Downs, the driver is not taken out of the hands of the golfer.   The driver is only the wrong club if you mis-hit it.

For all of those who cry for options, why would you want to eliminate them in favor of TARGET golf ?

[JESII]

Patrick,

Re-read Tom Paul's initial post on this thread, we are talking about holes in which driver is an option, just not a good one. That means it is taken out of your hands.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Darren, et. al.

One of the saddest sights in the world of golf is taking the climb to the 8th green at CPC and seeing a 4-ball of red-blooded golfers walking down to their balls on the adjacent 9th, sitting nicely on the grass 180-yards from the tee.  I'm sure their caddies told them it was the "safe" play, but what is golf without a thrill or two?  Ditto for the 3rd at Cruden Bay--if you don't try to drive that hole, you haven't gone around in life, and possibly never will.....

Rich,

I couldn't agree with you more.
When the caddy handed me a 4 -iron to lay up on # 16 at CPC I told him I didn't come 3,000 miles to play safe on one of the great holes on one of the great courses in the World.

Darren,

I interpret your post as not wanting to remove the driver from the golfers hands, but to diminish the emphasis on the long drive.

I view that as penalizing talent.

I'd rather see the driver as a viable option, with other options available on some holes, just like the 1st hole at NGLA.
But, I don't want to mandate the driver's removal for all practical purposes.

If balls weren't being hit with 300+ yard carries and overall distances in the mid to upper 300's, we'd never be having this discussion, and courses wouldn't have had to have been disfigured in order to accomodate or defend against the hi-tech onslaught.[/color]

[JESII]

I want you to realize something Patrick, as we go through this. All of this debate (whichever side one falls on) makes it clear that good green complexes dictate what you do from the tee. With an easy, under-challenging green complex it becomes a whole lot more forgiving to blast away with the driver on most any of these holes we bring up.

Not a thread-jack because I'm enjoying this discussion, but if you look at it, 'par' is definitely defended at the green. In doing so the entire hole is effected.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Patrick,

Re-read Tom Paul's initial post on this thread, we are talking about holes in which driver is an option, just not a good one. That means it is taken out of your hands.

JES II

When an option isn't a good one, for practical purposes,
THERE IS NO OPTION.

The first hole at NGLA offers a wonderful option.

To the long ball hitter the 3rd at Adios offers no option.[/color]


The Lob Wedge put an end to a good deal of tactics and has muted the effect of good green complexes.

[JESII]

The Lob Wedge put an end to a good deal of tactics and has muted the effect of good green complexes.

Then lets take those out of players hands as well because clearly the game is dead. Bring out the horse and buggies so we can return to playing out of ruts and tracks and hoof prints. That'll put a little hair on your a**.

[JESII]

JES II

When an option isn't a good one, for practical purposes,
THERE IS NO OPTION. How is that different from what Tom Doak said? On the holes at Crystal Downs, driver is not the smart play (but it is an option for the dummy).

The first hole at NGLA offers a wonderful option.

To the long ball hitter the 3rd at Adios offers no option.

By the way, I know none of these holes, but the principles are the same as throughout the discussion.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

[quote author=JES II


The only conclusion I can derive from those voices (Pat, Kelly etc...) that say it is bad to take driver out of a players hand on a hole is that every hole should be a driver hole. Is that your opinion? Kelly, do you not design short placement type holes? Pat, do you not enjoy the strategy of a well designed short par 4? Please explain.

I'm not sure it is so clear cut, bad vs. good.  Although I like things simple, this issue of the driver is a complicated matter in some ways.  For instance there is a short par 4 I like because I do not have a set plan for how I will play it.  I may play a shorter placement shot to some benefit but there can be draw backs, and there are other times I will play a 3 metal, and there are times I feel right about playing a driver.  Therefore, the driver is not taken out of my hands.  By purposely designing the hole to force the placement shot, eliminate the driver, in any circumstances other than the force of natural conditions just doesn't appeal to me.  I want the driver to be a good option, and I want the negative ramifications of a poorly placed driver to not be so evident even after a few plays.    There can be obvious bunkers that must be carried, but maybe they are hidden, but there may be slope issues in the area of the driver that are not so apparent until after a few plays, then the same player may choose to lay back and play a placement shot.  In that instance it may benefit them to do so, but again after a few plays they discover some of the drawbacks to laying back, slope issues, pin placements, etc.  So, the next time up they may revert back to playing a driver.  that to me is fun.  It takes much thought, it gives the freedom to the player to make some different choices, and it keeps them thinking afterwords that maybe they need a new strategy.  I like it when things are not so clear cut.  When there is no good or bad.  So in effect I would say that every hole can be a driver hole, why would you eliminate that option.  It might not be a good option that day, but I darn sure want it to be a good option under the right circumstanceson another day.  The driver might be more forgiving, but if the fairway landing area is designed well, or chosen well in the routing the player still has to place the shot in a precise manner to take full advantage of the approach shot.  I don't think the driver is so automatic in most good players hands.  

[JESII]

Kelly,

Thank you very much for that post. It makes your points very well.

I can't say that #'s 1, 7, 8, or 11 offer the opportunity for these long players to hit a driver very often if they are playing in a tournament. It would be possible, but the risk reward balance would tilt extremely heavy against a 300+ yard shot. That being said, I think you will really love those holes when you get the chance to play them.

p.s. I agree with you about the driver still being a difficult club to master, it certainly goes further and with less sidespin, but hitting it into a narrow landing area might be as difficult as before.

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