[Patrick_Mucci]

In light of the difficult summer in the Northeast and the dire condition of golf courses, is this a signal that golf courses need to consider regrassing ?

Poa seems to have overrun almost all golf courses and seems to be the major problem.  Should courses overrun with Poa regrass ?

Years ago I heard it said that spiked shoes contributed to the contamination of golf courses.  With spiked shoes a thing of the past, is this the right time to regrass ?

And, should regrassing be done every 25 years or so ?

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

I don't think regrassing is a "solution" to anything.

Most clubs which have regrassed their greens to eliminate the Poa annua [Inverness for one] have promptly gone back and done it again ten years later.  I think having the greens out of play one year out of ten is a little taxing on the members, don't you?

Royal Melbourne regrassed all their greens to Penncross in the mid-80's to "get with the times" and they've regretted it ever since.  It took them several years to gather seed from the untouched greens on the east course and redo the greens on the Composite with the mix they'd had to start with.

[TEPaul]

I think golf courses should definitely THINK about regrassing, particularly if they're susceptible to poa as most are. Here's one of the reasons I say that:

This is a quote from the USGA Green Section Turf Advisory Service Report from August 12, 2005 for my own course in Eastern PA.

"A. MANAGEMENT. Bentgrass greens are dry greens. Poa annua greens are wet greens. Thus developing an overall philosophy of firmer and drier can, by itself, suppress poa annua. It's our understanding that this is how a golf course is supposed to be managed. We agree with it. The greens should be kept as dry as possible with longer wet/dry cycles between irrigations, with hand watering supplementing areas that need more water between general irrigations."

This is a Green Section Report obviously mostly directed at agronomic health. But one can certainly see what the effects on playability are with these agronomic suggestions.

The flip side of the coin is that in this day and age where most courses are going for more aggressive green maintenance practices of faster greens ANYWAY, it doesn't take a genius to see that the wet type greens (poa) are going to always be inherently more susceptible to the "danger zone" than their counterpart bentgrass, a dry type green!

The point of all this is to keep bentgrass greens as dry as possible because they're healthier that way. The same cannot be said for poa greens.

[mike_malone]

 It is more than regrassing. It seems that bent needs a different micro environment than poa. It seems to need much more sun and air to prosper. So, you need to plan for that as well---tree management and airflow analysis are needed.

[Jeff_Brauer]

Should they regress? Or should they move forward?  Is this another "restoration purity thread?"  

Oh wait, you said regrass......

Never Mind.....

[Lou_Duran]

Jeff,

What happened at Ridgeview Ranch with the greens?  Do you know what grass they sodded with?

My recollection is that you guys originally sprigged it with Tifdwarf or Eagle, then after a couple of years+ they were redone with Champion.  Why are they having these problems?

BTW, the greens at Tangle Ridge have a bad case of bermuda infestation.  Are there ways to eradicate the bermuda without having to gas and strip the whole surface and start over?

[Jeff_Brauer]

Lou,

I read where RR used Mini Verde this time around.  I am using it out on our project on Lake Tawakoni.  Jim Moore and others say there is no reason it wouldn't be just as good as Champions, which is the current fave or supers in DFW, after a period where TifEagle seemed to predominate here.

They were originally TifDwarf, and then they changed to Champions.  I suspect they are just a victim of their own success, and overrun as they play (last I heard 63,000 rounds) on greens which we downsized a bit from Tangleridge for cost reasons, and to give the course a different scale.  The course has pretty good air ciruculation, the same mix as TR and other courses, good drainage, etc.

John Conley and I did note the Bermuda infestations at TR.  Also, the ball marking and general softness, etc.  However, they did putt well.  Off the top of my head, I don't know what they will do other than regrass those greens at some point, probably to one of the newer Bermudas.

When I got DFW, it was after a few years of deep freezes.  The thought was that if you lose bermuda every seven years, maybe it is better to baby the greens all summer.  Turned out to be the wrong choice, and with newer bermudas, turf covers (placed at 40degreesF, not waiting until 32) and better management, I am sure almost all courses will switch.  I have heard bent requires about 30K in chemicals over bermuda, and you really don't get better conditions, esp. on high play public courses.

[Phil_the_Author]

Are we certain that Poa greens are really all that bad? Could  we possibly be over-reacting to a "condition" that might not be what has been assumed for a number of years? After all, it seems obvious that for the next thirty years or so (if not more) the USGA is committed to play our national championship on on Poa greens at least 20% of the time. This is at Pebble & Bethpage Black. By the way, the greens at the Black are fabulous year-round.

So for those, such as myself, who are "Poa-challenged," what is so po-or about Poa?

[JSlonis]

In the Philadelphia area I would say definitely regrass.  There is no question that Poa is a huge problem.  The Anthracnose and other diseases that are spread by having to keep it wet and trying to keep it alive, are a huge problem.  I see it all across this region.  The best greens I've seen all summer are Bent Grass greens that were redone from 1-3 years ago.  With the advent of newer chemicals that can better manage the influx of Poa into Bent greens, I don't know of a better solution.  Each year it seems clubs like ours and others across our region with the same Poa/Bent mix just suffer every summer with the same problems.  

We have two short game greens that were constructed three years ago with the newer A1 & A4 Bent grass and those greens continue to be perfectly healthy throughout this tough summer.  The difference in condition between those greens and the Poa/Bent greens on our course is night and day.

Philip,

Poa greens may be fine year round at a place like Pebble Beach because of the climate.  That area simply does not get the huge stress of very hot and humid conditions like the Middle Atlantic region does.  I also usually don't see the Poa greens that exist in the NY Metro/LI area get beat up as bad as the greens around the South Jersey/Philly/Baltimore area.

[Jerry Kluger]

Well Pat, you've hit a nerve with me and it's not regrassing the greens it's the freakin fairways.  Here's the story at my alleged home course.  The course was built in the 50's and had some nice fairways and about 6 years ago I see the beginnings of some really ugly grass getting into some of the fairways.  I am not a GCAer at the time so I have to go to the superintendent and ask him what is going on.  He explains to me that it is some type of bermuda - more like a pure weed if you ask me - and he needs to kill it but the owners will not allocate the funds to kill it and then to resod the areas so he is not going to do anything about it.  Now the crap is all over the place and in the conditions we have this summer, it is taking over all the fairways.  It is truly ugly and when you take a divot you can wind up with about a 2 foot vine of the crap coming up.  Now, the topper in all of this is that our Greens Chairman for all these years and who did nothing about it based upon the fact that it is still there, is Brian Ault.  Now Mr. Ault has been hired to design the new course as it was announced last year that the property was going to be sold to Winchester Homes and they would build a new course along with homes.  That whole deal has met with total resistance by the environmentalists and the deal may fall through in which case we are left with garbage. I have seen this weed at some other local courses and I hope they are smart enough to deal with it before it is too late.  

[Jeff_Brauer]

I am not a GCAer at the time so I have to go to the superintendent and ask him what is going on......

Jerry,

Do you really think this board, where no one has seen your exact situation, and only a few are qualified agronomists would have been a better resource to ask than the superintendent who knew what the conditions are and why?  I think its unwise to use this forum in that way.

You are probably outside of DC if Brian was your green chair, where many grasses grow well, but none grow that well, and infestation of unwanted grasses can occur.  That would be especially true for moderate price clubs where the cost of genetic purity is outside the normal budget.

It also doesn't sound like its an equity club, if the super has to go to the Owner, in which case, I suspect Brian would be in a similar position - even if he recommended re-grassing, it sounds from your post like it would have had to been approved elsewhere.  And, of course, had they anticipated building a new course in this time period, its clear the expense of improving the fairways would be hard to justify, no?  If the new course is denied, then they will possibly rethink the situation.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom Doak,

A good number of courses have effectively lost their greens for this season and the likelihood is, that if another similar summer comes along, the same thing will happen.  
Perhaps it can be viewed as an investment in the future with the prospect of improved playing conditions irrespective of the weather.

When you grassed Sebonack what did you feel the effective shelf life of the grass you selected would be ?

Jerry Kluger,

I didn't limit my thread to greens.

[Jerry Kluger]

Jeff: I made the inquiry at my club 6 years ago at a time where there was nothing to indicate that the course was going to be sold.  At that time I would estimate that perhaps 2 percent of the fairways had evidence of the problem - now I would say it is approaching 50 percent so at this point in time I would not venture to guess how you could deal with it.  I've always taken the position that if you accept a title and the benefits associated with that title then you must take your responsiblity seriously and if you feel that the person or persons in control are not working in the best interests of the organization and you cannot do anything to stop it then you must make your position known and resign if necessary.  There are board members of some very prominent corporations that allowed those in charge to act in a manner that was not in the best interests of the shareholders and they chose not to resign their positions and are paying dearly for it.  If you are on the board of a club and feel that the ownership is not acting in the best intersts of the members then you need to decide if you want to remain on the board and not simply say I told them what to do and they ignored it.

[Jeff Goldman]

In Chicago we have also had a tough summer, but some older greens with stuff left over from who knows when have been fine.  The greens on the South Course at Olympia Fields are some 1930 German bent/poa pos mix and have been fine, though admittedly soft because they have been watered a lot, whereas some of the North Course greens haven't been too good, especially the 2 rebuilt to USGA standards for the Open.  The North Course greens were first regrassed in 1984 or 5 to get rid of the Poa, and people say they haven't been the same since (just word of mouth though).  Word is they haven't improved since being regrassed with L-93 for the Open.  At the first meeting about a master plan for the South Course this spring, someone asked if we should regrass the South Course greens, and was met with looks of horror from one and all.

Shelly Solow can add to this, but I was at his place, Briarwood, a few weeks ago, again with pretty old stuff on the greens, and they were great.  This is admittedly anecdotal evidence (I understand Butler National's new greens are terrific), but I think generally it pays to be Hippocratic - first, do no harm.

Jeff Goldman

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Pat,

There will be some good examples to follow in the next few years.  Courses that have killed their fairways, primary roughs, tees and greens through a process that includes basamid, and reseeded with bents.  I have not yet heard of any significant poa infestations in the A-4 grasses that are used on the greens.  There are those that like poa and can manage it, however recent environmental conditions have made it most difficult.  Not helping is the contimued resistence to tree removal.

[TEPaul]

Kelly:

Poa sure does begin to peek it's weird little cauliflower head into the "A" strain greens in a few years. Maintenance has to get on a regular poa suppression and removal program or it will come back. They say the "A" strain is much denser than most other bents and that alone will keep poa out of "A" strain bent greens longer but that may be a bit of a wife's tale (or is it tail?).

One great point made by our USGA regional agronomist, though, is bent grass is a dry grass and poa is a wet grass.

One of the best ways then with bent greens, particularly the "A" strain, is to just get on a regular program of keeping the greens as dry as possible as often as possible. Obviously poa can't take that!  

Not to mention the fact that dry putting greens are FIRM putting greens and all that means to great playability.  

Clearly America over irrigated so much for so long that they didn't figure any of this stuff out.

1. Over-irrigated wet and soft greens are more conducive to poa and that's bullshit

2. Over-irrigated wet and soft greens are more conducive to total reliance on aerial golf and completely defeating of ground game golf and thats DOUBLE bullshit.

3. Constantly wet and soft conditions on putting greens from over-irrigation is more conducive to disease and heat stress from basically boiling in wet sub-soll conditions and that's TRIPLE bullshit and constantly closer to the "danger zone" and the death of the grass.

Do you think those three reasons, at least, are enough good reasons to begin to maintain drier putting greens with bent grass?

I sure do.

As Mayday Malone asked---do bentgrass greens, even the new "A" strains, have their own set of problems? Of course they probably do and we'll likely find out a whole lot more about what those separate sets of problems are in the future but wouldn't you think most would consider bent grass now that we're beginning to FINALLY understand what poa annua doesn't like---eg dryness??  

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Regarding the spelling of tail in that context you may have to ask a gynecologist since they are spreaders of old wive's tails.

There are choices but so far I have not heard any major drawbacks to the A strains.  I think some were surprised that it was overexaggerated how much  maintenance they require, not to downplay their needs.  Further, the drought tolerance has been exceptional.  Teaching the crew to spot poa on those greens and extract it can help.  you will have openings barespots due to other environmental factors so the crew must be diligent.  However, given good growing conditions I would doubt poa infestation would  be much if at all.  

I think some may have equated dry, firm healthy conditions with lower nitrogen fertility, however I believe some of the problems particularly with anthracnose have been exacerbated by wet conditions and low fertility.   I am certain there are others on here who know much more.  One thing that may be hard for some to adapt to is when we have naturally wet conditions.  Not all turf maintenance programs have prepared for that type of condition and they get hit hard.  

[TEPaul]

"One thing that may be hard for some to adapt to is when we have naturally wet conditions.  Not all turf maintenance programs have prepared for that type of condition and they get hit hard."

Kelly:

I think many of these recent threads on here on agronomy, disease, hugely dangerous weather conditions, over aggressive maintenance practices in the face of all that have gone a long way to identifying how to prepare for those types of eventualities. I think we know from the last six weeks of summer around here that naturally wet conditions followed by really high heat and humidity and right through the nights is a severe stress time for grass.

So what does one do about it to prevent loss or death. One way is to stop the aggressive maintenance practices immediately, unfortunately even if that may mean right in the midst of an important tournament. It probably means a fairly sure fix is to just open the greens and turf up and let it breath. But when grass is really on the stress edge some say even that's too disruptive and can take it over the edge.

The best solutions seem to be syringing and cooling it down but syringing doesn't solve the inherent problem of severe soil heat. Probably the last fail-safe measure is to just dump some fairly cold water on it to cool down the soil, but who is really prepared for that? A couple of courses in the last few years realize they killed their grass by dumping a lot of water on it that was too hot itself.

Or we could do what ANGC can do in the worst case---eg buy mobile snow makers and use them when the "emergency ward" turns really critical.  

[Chris Munoz]

What a great topic to talk about on this site and aswell as in the golf industry with the weather we have been having this summer and still today.  Plan and simple, golf courses on pushed to the limit and always the grass wins.  Overwatering, low mowing heights and extensive stress on the leaf blade all lead to dead grass.  When a weather period like what we have been having here in the northeast, the best thing to do is play it by ear and let nature take care of the problems that exist.  

Regrassing always leads to problems in the long run and runs up the budget aswell.  What I would do, is to regrass at a slow and moderate pace.  Everytime one aerates or verticuts, drop some bentgrass or what ever u are trying to establish and see what happens.  But having poa is not bad.  Just deal with it and change one's turf practices.  

Muni

[Dan_Lucas]

The hardest thing to deal with here is that poa will always be a problem. It is one of the toughest, most adaptable plants on the planet. Just regrassing means you have taken care of your poa problem for 5-10 years. In order to have those conditions long term you must change the maintenance practices that have favored the poa over the years.

If any grass is overwatered, overfertilized and sprayed preventatively for every possible disease, you are basically raising a plant on welfare. It doesn't have to work for anything it needs to survive. Therefore when times of high stress hit it just checks out. Sometimes with little or no warning.

If you dry it out, lean it out and let a little disease work on it, then spray it before it gets to an unacceptable visual level, you are in effect thinning the herd and letting the weaker plants die off. The stronger plants survive and actually gain strength because you are making them develop and use their root system to get the water and nutrients they need to survive.

If a poa course under a bad maintenance regime wanted to change grasses I would start by tryng to overseed regularly after aerifying and with topdressing to introduce bent into the mix. Then slowly change the maintenance practices to squeeze out the weak plants and encourage the bents. Over time you would develop a tougher strain of poa mixed with bents that would fight for survival. Unless you have the money to regrass every ten years or a few extra crew members that would do nothing but manually remove poa as it shows, that is what you will end up with anyway.

I have had poa greens in the past that were very tough and putted as good as any bent except while seeding. Now we have the tools to control seedheads so that is a minimal problem.

On older greens the poa/bent ratio is in continual flux. Poa has an edge in spring and fall, while bent has the edge in the heat of the summer when the poa root system dies back.

What most don't realize is that there are hundreds of different strains of poa that adapt to different conditions. Some will adapt to dry, lean conditions and do well. I have not been to Oakmot, but if those greens stimp at 13 every day, I would say that is some tough poa that has adapted through the years to the management practices applied there and is evidently one of the best putting grasses in the world.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Dan,

I don't believe that Oakmont stimps at 13 every day.

What causes poa to infiltrate and dominate fairways and greens over time ?

[Dan_Lucas]

Pat,

Poa is a prolific seed producer at ANY height of cut. Some strains produce more than others, but a single plant can produce dozens of seeds per week. Bent produces almost none because that is what we have bred it to do. I don't know this for fact, but have heard that poa seeds can lay dormant in the soil for more than 10 years waiting for the right conditions to grow. It is very tenacious. Therefore any seed that makes it's way onto a course through tracking or bird droppings etc. has a chance to germinate. When it is not seeding, it looks just like a bentgrass plant so it isn't noticed, though in some seasons it is a lighter green. It then seeds, seeds spread, repeat... On greens you can manually remove it before it spreads too far if you have the manpower to do so. On fairways it is impossible to keep up with. When you have it in your fairways it WILL spread to the rest of the course.

The many different strains also make it unbelievably adaptible to any environment. It is the poplar tree of the grass world. It will fill in any opening in the turf. The first poa you see will grow fast, seed hard then die. Succeeding generations will adapt and learn how to survive longer in the environment they are provided while continuing to seed heavily. It will grow in soils that are so compacted that nothing else will. But the seeds also loves aerifier holes.

This is why trying to fight it off is futile. The only way to limit it is to manage your turf to give your preferred grasses every edge that you can.

All I know about Oakmont is what I've heard. "They had to slow the greens down to hold the Open." and many more like comments. Like I said, I've never been there.

[TEPaul]

"I don't believe that Oakmont stimps at 13 every day."

Patrick:

I know just about what Oakmont's greens stimp at every day but the last thing I'm gonna do is tell some cockamamy duffus like you what they stimp at every day.

[SL_Solow]

I do not pretend to have the expertise of the greenkeepers who have been kind enough to participate in this discussion.  I have served as a green chairman for more than 10 years and on the turfgrass committee of our local Golf Association for some time so that there is some basis for my observations.  I think that management is more important than grass types although the newer strains do have some significant advantages.  At my home course we have greens with a variety of dominant strains all with varying degrees of poa.  Some of our original greens, circa 1921, still retain a significant stand of Washington Bent (a truly wonderful grass) on a natural push up medium.  Several others were rebuilt in the 70's and 80's with Penncross varieties on push up medium.  We also have 3 new greens built on a modified USGA medium using a mixture of the new L and A strains which are 4 years old.  During this difficult summer, our greenkeeper, Paul Voykin, kept all of them in good shape rolling at about the same speed each day.  He adjusted to the changes in heat and moisture and treated each green differently depending on its particular circumstances.  Green speeds were increased for a day or two for tournaments but greens were slowed when recovery was needed.  We also allowed some poa to burn out and then aerated and seeded with bent to try to increase the percentage of bent grass.  Careful management can allow most types of greens to survive.  On the other hand, some nearby courses with new greens made up of the newer strains lost several greens this summer because they place them under too much stress.  Paul would tell you that the newer grasses appear to be easier to maintain but that proper management is the key regardless of ht grass involved.

[TEPaul]

Shelly:

How firm (dry) has Paul Voykin and you guys been keeping those greens this year? Would you say this year he's been trying to keep them drier (firmer) than in past years?

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