Alex Findlay

[T_MacWood]

In Daniel Wexler's new book--The Book of Golfers--he did not have much positive to say about Alex Findlay. He concluded that AF really never produced anything of merit.

For those familiar with Findlay's work...is he not given the credit he deserves or was he a mediocre designer or some where in between?

[Kyle Harris]

Somewhere in between. Findlay's courses were "early quirk."

Llanerch CC is a very fun little golf course that typically gets USGA qualifiers. I've played the US Junior Am qualifier there, a few years back it held the US Open qualifier and this past year split US Am qualifying with Rolling Green. The course is fairly straightforward with a great set of greens and some fun par 3s. Llanerch also has one of the best playing memberships in the area. Billy Stewart plays out of there.

Tavistock CC is the home course of our own Jamie Slonis, hopefully he'll be able to pipe in about the course as I've never seen it. Another good playing membership that dominates GAP matches.

Mike Cirba speaks highly of Reading CC.

Talamore's old course was an Alex Findlay course called Oak Terrace CC. http://www.talamorepa.com/talamorehistory6.html

The history is poor at best, and if you can get past the historical errors and the bad attempts at connecting Findlay to Ross there is some decent info on Findlay in there. He DID design the original Aronimink, however, it wasn't on the current site that the Donald Ross course sits on, nor did he work with Ross on any version.

He also did Centre Hills in my beloved State College, PA. A great golf course with some amazing greens. Tom, you ought to make the trip from Columbus to State College in a month and play some golf with me then watch my Nittany Lions take apart your Buckeyes.  

[JSlonis]

Tom,

I think the answer would be: Somewhere in between.

My home course Tavistock CC(Haddonfield,NJ) is a Findlay design. After learning a bit about him, and some of his other designs, I would say that Tavistock is one of his best courses. Findlay's green designs at Tavistock are the highlight of our course.  Next year as part of our restoration plan, we will be expanding the greens back to their original sizes.  Jim Nagle who works with Ron Forse is our lead architect in the project.  Perhaps he can shed some more info as to Findlay's work.  I know that he is particularly fond of the green designs at Tavistock, and excited about the prospect of their expansion.  When completed, I think we will have some of the most interesting and fun greens in this area.

From what I have found out about Findlay, it seems in his early years he was somewhat of a "Johnny Appleseed" when it came to designing courses around the Northeast.  He did a fair amount of just rudimentary 9 & 18 hole courses that were nothing special architecturally speaking.  As he progressed in the business, and became more familiar with some of the other Golden Age architects work, it seems his designs reflected his growing experience, and the influence of his contemporaries.

[TEPaul]

In my opinion, Alex Findlay was one of those really early architects (apparently he got to America and started practicing as early as 1885!!) whose courses or entire work product is probably quite misunderstood. It's just amazing to realize how early Alex Findlay was on the American golf and golf architecture scene, and that may have something to do with his reputation (or lack of reputation for real quaility architecture).

He was probably also the original Johnny Appleseed of golf and early architecture in America. As such he obviously did some courses that were very quick and quite rudimentary or simple because of that (perhaps somewhat like the other early "Johnny Appleseed" architect, Tom Bendelow).

However, if given the time and the budget Findlay seems to have been quite good to very good in producing quality architecture. Tavistock is likely a good example of that. As was mentioned on the other thread regarding Findlay, he was practical but he could be good----again if given the right client, project, time and budget.

[Mike_Cirba]

Tom,

Please see this prior thread.  I did a lot of typing on that one and I think I'd have very little to add since then, other than to concur with the prior positive remarks about Tavistock and Llanerch.

http://www.golfclubatlas.com/forums2/index.php?board=1;action=display;threadid=6108;start=msg116571#msg116571

[Craig_Rokke]

Some decent holes at Coatesville CC as well.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

What about Walnut Lane profiled here at GCA? There are some good holes there. Really.

[Kyle Harris]

Good call Steve, and you're right, it isn't bad at all.

[Craig_Rokke]

Walnut Lane is flat out fun. I saw that they (the group that markets Philly publinks golf) utilized the GCA write up in their
marketing efforts, citing that Walnut Ln has been grouped with the write-ups on the best courses in the world!!

I've seen aerials of the NLE Tredyffrin CC, which apparently was pretty decent in its day, one hole straddling what is now rt 252, near rt 30. (Wonder if that relatively flat plot cramped his creativity? Everything else I've seen is on hilly terrain.)  He also designed the original Aronimink GC, ploughed under to make way for Lankenau Hospital, birthplace of my kids. A lot of his courses are NLE, it seems.

Some interesting facts about Findlay include:

Laid out his first course at age 20
Designed into his 70's
Played 2400 courses (Wonder if he missed any?)

I think part of his mandate was to sort of "spread the word" about golf, exposing new people to the game. When you
work for sporting goods companies and the Florida East Coast railroad, my guess is you're not going to be spending
a half year on site for each project. For his day, I think Findlay fell in the middle as far as talent.

[Dan Herrmann]

His Reading CC is closing to build more housing  

I used to be a member at Coatesville CC, and except for the first 2 holes (IMHO, ruined by members), it's a very fun course in desperate need of tree management.

It's quite quirky, with massive hills.  You always seem to have a sidehill lie.  The greens are tiny and very challenging.  They have a 1st class Superintendant (Tom Bolko) who has really transformed the course from below average conditioning to first rate.  

Just watch out for tree roots if you go into the rough!

From a design standpoint, there are some very strategic holes, but there's only one fairway bunker on the course.

IMHO, the order of the holes is not optimal (the BOD keeps changing them) and further tree growth has the potential to ruin the course.  Hopefully they'll begin removing trees soon.

[JNagle]

Ah Findlay, somewhat unknown and unheralded!  I just spent this afternoon studying his Meadow Brook Country Club in Reading, MA today.  An interesting little 9 holer with distinct Findlay features.  He seemed to love using swales, swells, bumps and undulations in his greens.  Some are comparable to the best Ross and Tillie greens with similar features.   Findlay did very little in the realm of fairway bunkering but his green swells and contours made up for a lack of strategic fairway bunkers, ala Reading, Lebanon and Tavistock.  His greenside bunkers could be and still remain very difficult and deep.  He combined grass faces with flashed sand (sometimes on the same hole).  He would use simple shapes with heavily scalloped bunkers.  And mounds could be found on his course (fairway and greens).  Sometimes he would build a mound just of the edge of a green quickly rising to 6-7 feet.  Studying the greens at Tavistock one will constantly discover intricate features and rolls (it depends on the sun angle whether you can really see them).  Those guys have to be tired of hearing about how great I think their greens are.  

Findlay was (along with Bendelow) the Johnny Appleseed of American golf.  He was trying to spread the game in the late 1800's and early 1900's out west and was practically laughed at.   Famous Indian chief's were known to enjoy watching him hit golf balls while others thought he was nuts to try and spread "this fullish game".  He began to compile his memoires but they were never finished or published.  Most of his courses were 9 holers that were eventually changed and turned into 18 - holers.  IMHO Tavistock was his best.  The back nine at Lebanon has some geat little features worth seeing.  I am looking forward to visitng Lake Placid to view the Mountain course and 14 holes of classic Findlay.

Alexander Findlay deserves more credit than he is given.  His status amongst the greats is non existent, his importance to the game is greatly overlooked.  Some of his courses are insignificant but some are very interesting.  There is a gentleman in Western MA who has some great information, I do not recall his name but he may have more to add.  

[JeffTodd]

I'm scheduled to play Burlington Country Club (NJ) next week. It is a Findlay design, according to golfcourse.com anyway. Does anyone have any experience or insight that they would like to share?

Mike Cirba, thanks for providing that link to your previous post. From my experience on a handful of Findlay designs, you seem to have captured the essence of his style.

JSlonis, I had the pleasure of playing your course a few years ago and couldn't agree more with your assessment of the greens. They were truly wonderful, and if I recall correctly, they seemed to get better and better as the round progressed.

[Tommy_Naccarato]

I drove by, but didn't actualy go see Valley Forge on the way to the actual Valley Forge back in 2000. It looked rather appealing with it's openess. And yes, as Redanman accurate describes--ignorance--as it didn't look like much had been done to it--which I find to be probably a good thing. But wasn't that property supposed to be targeted for redevelopment?

[Dan Herrmann]

Yep - Valley Forge GC is slated to be bulldozed sometime in the next few years - the land is worth way too much to a developer to let it stay a below-average golf course.  IIRC, there was a intra-family squabble over the land after the original owner's death, and some issues with the township - but it's gonna happen.

Shame too - the last bit of greenery in that part of town.

[JSlonis]

I'm scheduled to play Burlington Country Club (NJ) next week. It is a Findlay design, according to golfcourse.com anyway. Does anyone have any experience or insight that they would like to share?

Mike Cirba, thanks for providing that link to your previous post. From my experience on a handful of Findlay designs, you seem to have captured the essence of his style.

JSlonis, I had the pleasure of playing your course a few years ago and couldn't agree more with your assessment of the greens. They were truly wonderful, and if I recall correctly, they seemed to get better and better as the round progressed.

Jeff,

Burlington CC is not a Alex Findlay course.  It was designed in 1929 by John Finley.  Glad you liked Tavistock...it'll be even better after our restoration project next year.

Hopefully, after we reopen in the Spring of 2007, I'll be able to host a GCA day at Tavistock, for a day of golf and golf architecture.  Maybe we can even convince Jim Nagle to make an appearance if we can coordinate with his busy schedule.

[mike_malone]

I heard that Reading could be taken over by the local government and become public.

[TEPaul]

"I'm scheduled to play Burlington Country Club (NJ) next week. It is a Findlay design, according to golfcourse.com anyway. Does anyone have any experience or insight that they would like to share?"

Jeff Todd:

I have some experience there but I don't think it will help you. I remember trying to qualify for the US Amateur there (along with Laurel Creek). To be honest I can only remember parts of about 2-3 holes at Burlington (although I can remember all the holes at Laurel Creek).

What I remember best about Burlington G.C. is that was about the third time in a local US Amateur qualifier I was paired with Georgia's Bobby Young who for some reason in those days would always come up to Philadelphia to try to qualify for the US Amateur.

And I guess I can see why. I don't think he ever missed up here and that day at Laurel Creek (he shot a 67 there) and at Burlington he was the medalist.  I think I missed by a by a bunch and probably wasn't doing that well by the time we got to Burlington which might partially explain why I can't remember much of anything about the golf course.

Enjoy yourself next week, though.

[JeffTodd]

I'm scheduled to play Burlington Country Club (NJ) next week. It is a Findlay design, according to golfcourse.com anyway. Does anyone have any experience or insight that they would like to share?

Mike Cirba, thanks for providing that link to your previous post. From my experience on a handful of Findlay designs, you seem to have captured the essence of his style.

JSlonis, I had the pleasure of playing your course a few years ago and couldn't agree more with your assessment of the greens. They were truly wonderful, and if I recall correctly, they seemed to get better and better as the round progressed.

Jeff,

Burlington CC is not a Alex Findlay course.  It was designed in 1929 by John Finley.  Glad you liked Tavistock...it'll be even better after our restoration project next year.

Hopefully, after we reopen in the Spring of 2007, I'll be able to host a GCA day at Tavistock, for a day of golf and golf architecture.  Maybe we can even convince Jim Nagle to make an appearance if we can coordinate with his busy schedule.

J-

The BCC scorecard stated:  

Golf Architects -
Alexander Findlay, Original Design 1929
Ault & Clark Assoc., Renovation 2002

Are you certain that John Finley did the original work there?  

 

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I was at Burlington today with GAP.  Volunteering, not playing.  The first hole, with the subtle folds in the fairway and offset green, screams Alex Findlay (ex. at Reading) to me.  Has any more information about this course come forth in the past (seven) years now?  GAP's website list it as John Finley Golf Construction, and I am apt to believe Jamie, but again, they also list Philmont North as William Flynn  

[TEPaul]

Doug:

The GAP's architectural history of their member clubs and clubs in their radius basically comes from Jim Finegan's tome "Centennial of Golf in Philadelpia." The GAP actually contracted Finegan to do that tome and the GAP owns the rights to that book. Any historical mistakes with it need to be reported and vetted when reported with GAP. The GAP cares a good deal about the accuracy of the history of their member clubs but that may not be their top priority. Their top priority is the app. 50 tournaments they conduct annually!

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Tom-  Thank you.  That first hole at BCC screams Findlay, with the fairway, offset green, and use of bunkering.  Based on what I am reading, that being that Findlay would lay out the course's greens, tees, architectural features, and then John Finley was the firm that came in and actually put shovels in the ground to build it. 

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

One of his courses that I play each year in the Lehigh Valley Am. is Green Pond.  Here is a link to their website:

http://www.greenpondcc.com/Golf.php

Green Pond may not seem like much to a private club player however it is a fun golf course.  The tournament set up for the LVA is always really good.  Making match play is and winning a few matches is great fun.  The greens make the course and while they don't have an abundance of shapping but they do have enough to define and create interest.  No two greens really look alike either.  They each present their own set of requirements.  If you haven't been to Green Pond it is worth a visit.

[Joe Bausch]

One of his courses that I play each year in the Lehigh Valley Am. is Green Pond.  Here is a link to their website:

http://www.greenpondcc.com/Golf.php

Green Pond may not seem like much to a private club player however it is a fun golf course.  The tournament set up for the LVA is always really good.  Making match play is and winning a few matches is great fun.  The greens make the course and while they don't have an abundance of shapping but they do have enough to define and create interest.  No two greens really look alike either.  They each present their own set of requirements.  If you haven't been to Green Pond it is worth a visit.

It is on my radar SBR.

[Sean Remington (SBR)]

Joe - I will be interested to hear your thoughts and see more of your great pictures.  If Findlay was working to spread the game of golf in his day then Green Pond could be a great example of his efforts.

[Joe Bausch]

Joe - I will be interested to hear your thoughts and see more of your great pictures.  If Findlay was working to spread the game of golf in his day then Green Pond could be a great example of his efforts.

I'll have a report soon.  I made the trip up to Green Pond this afternoon.  I will say I had fun.