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Gary Smith (Guest)

Burning Tree
« on: December 19, 2002, 11:48:49 AM »
Have any of you guys played Burning Tree? If so, can you tell a little bit about it architecturally?

This is NOT an attempt to drag Burning Tree into the Burk/ANGC matter.

I simply was curious about the course, or courses.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

wsmorrison

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #1 on: December 19, 2002, 12:35:07 PM »
Sorry Gary, hate to divert attention from your question as I have no answers.  However, if anyone is aware of any design work at Burning Tree done by William Flynn, would you please email me with information or contacts?  I would appreciate it greatly.
Regards,
Wayne Morrison
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #2 on: December 19, 2002, 03:42:31 PM »
From a social point of view, Burning Tree does have a very macho perspective.  The only day women are allowed on the property is one day right before Christmas when they are allowed in the golf shop to --- buy Christmas presents!

Not trying to fuel the fire here, but it is pretty amusing!  Even Augusta National allows women to play even if not as members.

I believe the club gave up their non-profit status some years ago and began paying taxes rather than allow women in the membership.  Hard to understand how those legislators (like Don Nickles!) can continue membership given the current level of political correctness....
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

A_Clay_Man

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #3 on: December 20, 2002, 06:54:09 AM »
How old is the course?

I must state that I don't care for the name. It conjours up all negative thoughts, most of them south of the mason dixon.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #4 on: December 20, 2002, 07:04:18 AM »
Bill McBride,

Didn't PRESIDENT Bill Clinton and ALL of the women's groups tell us a few years ago, that what a person does with their private life has no bearing regarding the capacity in which they serve their official business.

If it was good enough for Bill Clinton, as PRESIDENT of THE UNITED STATES, why shouldn't that standard apply to other elected or appointed government or business officials ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #5 on: December 20, 2002, 08:16:56 AM »
I played the course a few years ago and it is hardly the macho club that everyone wants to make it out to be. Unfortunately I do not have too much information about the course itself and I played it on a very cold and windy November day but my impression was of a reasonably challenging but not very long course.  It is in a very desirable location inside the beltway known as the Burning Tree section of Bethesda and it is about 2 miles from Congressional.  
It is very unique as all members and their guests are treated equally as lunch is served at long tables where guys simply sit down next to each other and begin talking like they were old friends.  The lunch area has a huge picture window which is directly behind I believe the tenth tee so you know that everyone in the dining area is watching you tee off.  There is also a bar area where everyone in the room is very cordial and says hi when you come in even if you never met them before and no matter if you are a VIP or not.  There were a number of political types there and they were very friendly and there was no sense of pretentiousness anywhere in the club.  
Burning Tree lost its preferential property tax status when it refused to admit female members and this drove up the dues substantially but they have held fast to their all male membership.  The members I know absolutely love the club and enjoy it so much because of the equality amongst the members and not because of the lack of females.  
Since we are speaking of male and female issues I was reading Men's Health Magazine at the barber shop and they were quoting the meanest things a man has ever said to a woman and the story went that a man saw a rather large woman walking down the street with a Guess sweatshirt on and he said to her "Thyroid Problem?"
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

rpurd

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #6 on: December 20, 2002, 09:27:25 AM »
It is funny how the libs want it both ways.  A person can rape, sexually harass and lie to a grand jury, but it doesnt matter because it is in your "private" life.  But if you belong to a mens-only golf club, god forebid, you deserve to be burned at the stake!  This Lott controversey shines a big spotlight on this hypocrisy!

Burning Tree is a nice golf club.  Not as good as Congressional, but in the class of a Chevy Chase, Columbia CC etc.  
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Craig Disher

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #7 on: December 20, 2002, 09:33:57 AM »
rpurd,
In what sense is Burning Tree in the same class as Chevy Chase or Columbia and not as "good" as Congressional? Can you elaborate?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Bill_McBride

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2002, 10:13:11 AM »
Pat Mucci, I'm going to assume those questions were rhetorical!
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #9 on: December 20, 2002, 01:50:57 PM »
this article talks about Bryant Gumbel, who is a Burning Tree member:

(copied from the thread, "Liberal Media Takes Yet Another Shot at Hootie")


Just saw this article in today's Chicago Tribune.  It seems the liberal media, once again, has a double standard (remember the New York Times editorial issue?):

GUMBEL FANS ON AUGUSTA
by Ed Sherman

December 20, 2002


The Augusta National Golf Club issue is like a big octopus. Its many arms keep reaching out to bring new people into the controversy.

The latest is Bryant Gumbel.

The current installment of "Real Sports with Bryant Gumbel" features his interview with Martha Burk, the head of the National Council of Women's Organizations and Augusta National's recurring nightmare. The show had its HBO debut Tuesday, with numerous replays set throughout the weekend and next week.

The subject, of course, was Burk's quest to get the all-male club to bring in women members. Much ground was covered on this complicated issue. However, one notable piece of information was missing.

Gumbel did not disclose on the air that he is a member of Burning Tree Club, an ultra-exclusive all-male club in Bethesda, Md.

Its membership roll includes several high-ranking officials in Washington.

Burk said Gumbel informed her of his Burning Tree membership during a break in filming their piece.

"I told him it is the wrong kind of statement not only to the public, but also to your own daughter," Burk said Thursday of their off-camera discussion. "It makes the wrong kind of public statement for a person in his position."

Gumbel's membership, however, wasn't brought up when the cameras began rolling again.

At first, Burk speculated that perhaps Gumbel "knew what I would say." Later, Burk said she couldn't speak for Gumbel's motives.

The question is: Should Gumbel have told viewers of his membership at Burning Tree? The answer is an emphatic yes.

Journalists try to avoid conflicts of interest all the time. It is one of the cardinal rules of the profession.

Gumbel clearly had a conflict. The person interviewing the chief critic of an all-male club also is a member of another prominent all-male club. The viewer had a right to know.

As always, Gumbel asked direct questions during the interview. Watching for the first time, there's no reason to assume he had any other agenda than doing a good story. Burk noted the most heated debate didn't concern Augusta. Rather, the bigger disagreement is whether sex and race discrimination can be compared.

But watching it again, after learning of Gumbel's Burning Tree membership, a different perspective forms. For instance, there is a moment when he says to Burk, "Because [Augusta's Hootie Johnson] chooses to protect the rights of the club doesn't necessarily make the man a sexist."

Later, Gumbel asks, "Why all this hoopla" so one rich woman can get into Augusta?

It is easy to see how those questions could be viewed differently if you know Gumbel has a locker at an all-male club. Do those remarks mean he favors Augusta's position, or is it the means for an effective interview?

HBO President Ross Greenburg, who ultimately decided to keep Gumbel's membership out of the piece, calls the issue "an unbelievable case study in journalism." He says the network struggled over whether Gumbel should have revealed his personal situation.

Greenburg says his first instinct was to disclose Gumbel's membership, but Gumbel and the producers talked him out of it. They said it would give the viewers a predisposition to the questions and serve as a distraction to the piece.

Greenburg, the network's spokesman on the issue, remains ambivalent with the decision.

"I still struggle with it," Greenburg said. "Ideally, you want a journalist with nothing in his background to ask the questions that need to be answered. However, there's a personal life to every journalist in America. We all have certain things in our private lives that raise our level of consciousness."

If those instances turn into conflicts, either another person should be assigned to do the piece--the best alternative--or there should be a full disclosure. On a larger scale, it happens more and more with media companies disclosing on the air or in print their ownership in an enterprise on which their news outlet is reporting.

Greenburg gives Gumbel complete support for how he conducted the interview, calling it "down the middle." He says he considers Gumbel one of the best journalists in the business. That should have been another argument for complete disclosure.

Given Gumbel's reputation, the viewer deserved all the facts to make an accurate assessment of the interview. His membership at Burning Tree needed to be put on the table.


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2002, 06:08:31 PM »
Bill McBride,

You could call it that.

Paul Richards,

He had an obligation, at the very least, at the end of the interview to disclose all of the facts, including his membership at Burning Tree, but, wouldn't he and HBO then come under some form of scrutiny, not unlike CBS ?
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Looking for the Light

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2002, 06:47:05 PM »
Gary Smith,

Unfortunately, while I appreciate your desire to get some good old fashioned golf talk going regarding Burning Tree, this forum doesn't seem to want to do that. Simply mentioning that this is not supposed to be dragged into the Augusta muck is not enough. Someone should delete this thread. But good try nonetheless. I too would like to know about a course I hadn't ever actually heard of.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

guest

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #12 on: December 20, 2002, 06:47:24 PM »

Quote
It is funny how the libs want it both ways.  A person can rape, sexually harass and lie to a grand jury, but it doesnt matter because it is in your "private" life.  But if you belong to a mens-only golf club, god forebid, you deserve to be burned at the stake!  This Lott controversey shines a big spotlight on this hypocrisy!

Burning Tree is a nice golf club.  Not as good as Congressional, but in the class of a Chevy Chase, Columbia CC etc.  

Rpurd,

What planet are you on ? The Clinton case was a Presidential Impeachment case, and there was a RAPE? Now that is news. Augusta is a public relations case. Lott is a political case. If you are going to argue a point, be specific, compare things that are comparable and stick to the facts.

Same goes for your architectual reviews. What are we supposed to do with, "Burning Tree is a nice golf club." Last I heard so is Augusta, Cypress Point and Pine Valley. ??? Do us a favor and go over to the "libs" side. >:(
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

rpurd

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #13 on: December 20, 2002, 07:56:12 PM »
I really love these anonymous guest posters.  Why not show yourself......or are you gutless.  

All of these cases are comparable.  They are all political.  It is sad you can't see it.  If Nickles put his hat in the ring, BT would be the next burning issue.  Just like Snow's membership at ANGC would have been.  Open your eyes............Clinton got passes for everything, GOPers don't.  

As far as the course........it is a nice course.  I've played it several times and find nothing distinguishing about it.  It is in Chevy's and Columbia's league.  A nice old club with good members.  Congressional on the other is a much better golf test.......and the membership is the polar opposite.



« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #14 on: December 20, 2002, 08:44:27 PM »
rpurd:

I have said so MANY times here on GCA, but I HATE these anonymous posters - "Looking for the Light" being just one of the latest. >:( >:(

Looking for the Light:

If you haven't heard of Burning Tree then perhaps you are at the wrong website. :-[ :P ::)

Burning Tree is a men-only club that used to be on a Golfweek Top 100 list and it's roster is full of the powers-that-be in and around Washington DC.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:12 PM by -1 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Looking for the Light

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #15 on: December 20, 2002, 09:33:52 PM »
Mr. Richards,

I see you are a Doyen, whatever that is. I guess that means that you know everything huh? From your statement, I assume that people new to golf course architecture are at the wrong website anytime they look in here. That's good to know. I was under the wrong impression. I thought one was supposed to come here to learn about and discuss golf architecture. It is good to know that you were gracious enough and brilliant enough also to learn everything about every golf course before ever logging in here so that you would not find yourself "at the wrong website".

I see the significance to golf that the Augusta thing has and so I can see talking about it here to an extent. But it is getting into thread after thread. The blurb under the Golf Architecture heading says that non-architecture threads will be deleted. Why don't you test that and start yet another Martha Burk thread and repost the Gumble thing yet again. The truth is that if you want to beat that horse in thread after thread, then maybe YOU are at the wrong website.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #16 on: December 21, 2002, 06:13:21 AM »
Anybody interested, here's a blurb I wrote about Burning Tree a few years back....  J. Cummings

Within a few yards of the inner loop of Washington’s beltway lies a wonderful little club, which over the years has had far more exposure than they wanted. A small men’s only golfing club, Burning Tree (5.0) is nestled in a prime piece of Washington real estate and for the past 70 years has quietly watched suburbia grow up around it.  Long time home of presidents, influential members of Congress and other prominent Washingtonians, Burning Tree became exposed to a 1970's thrust by several powerful DC women to open their doors to both sexes.  Burning Tree resisted and endured an ensuing legal battle over sexual discrimination.  When the dust settled, the courts decided that the state had no legal right to infringe on Burning Tree’s male-only policy.  But the courts retaliated in another way.  Built in the 1920-30s in a then very rural area, the golf course property had long been taxed as farmland.  The courts updated the club’s zoning, changing the golf course property from farmland into prime DC residential real estate.  The associated property taxes went from a few thousand dollars a year to in the neighborhood of a million dollars a year.  Divide this by the 300 or so members and each member had an associated annual dues increase of around $5000 just to pay the club taxes.  They are back to being a quiet club but their pocketbooks remain a little sore.

On record, Burning Tree was designed by the famous Golden Age team of Colt and Alison with later revisions by Jones, Sr., Ault, and recently, Arthur Hills.  In actuality, Hugh Alison and junior partner Alister Mackenzie did the design, planning and construction oversight with very little help from Colt.  Colt preferred to spend his time in England and Europe and leave the American designs to Alison, who enjoyed traveling to the States.  Besides Burning Tree, in 1924 Alison was simultaneously involved in no less than 8 course constructions in Maryland, New Jersey, Iowa and Illinois as well as a joint project with Mackenzie in England.  Alison was a traveling man.

Brad Klein, Al Kanters and I showed up and were met by assistant pro Craig Bricker.  Head pro Charles Briggs was not there but had arranged for us to play and for Craig to show us around.  Craig secured caddies and showed us to the range where we loosened up under rather balmy 50 degree temperatures.  Off to the first tee we went.

A consummate parkland setting, BT is as nice a walk in the park as it is a round of golf played.  The holes wend their way through gently rolling topography protected the entire way by a surrounding mature forest.  The place has such a secluded feel to it that for years a small herd of deer have called it home, never venturing beyond the club’s borders.  They are fed by the maintenance crew during the winter months.  During those cold months the protective canopy of trees that buffer the course from the adjoining beltway is all but gone which allows for some ugly highway sights and associated noise.  An acoustic barrier wall helps some but the highway is still a big presence, especially on the lower holes.  I’m told that in the summer you don’t even know the beltway is there. Short at 6400yds (although it can feel longer) from the one and only set of tees, most of the strategy at Burning Tree focuses on negotiating your approaches.  Off the tee this is a cutter’s course where 6 of the 7 doglegs go to the right.  Classic complex and varied Alison/Mackenzie trapping is evident on many of the holes although the green contouring (mostly original greens) is more subdued and understated.  This may be by design or a consequence of revisions over the years.  Currently, Hills is in the process of re-doing all the surrounding green complexes.  Greenside slopes and bunkering are being refurbished, providing improved green perimeter definition and complicating missed-green recoveries.  Burning Tree gets great marks in the compatibility, land plan, and sense-of-theme categories.  It gets less great marks in the strategic flexibility and design balance categories.  It gets beyond perfect marks for the clubhouse.  

Tiny and understated, Burning Tree’s clubhouse is little more than a locker room with a couple of  adjoining rooms.  A sitting room off one side seconds as a trophy room where in a small display you can see the drivers of all presidents since Taft (Clinton’s will be there after he leaves office).  The breakfast nook off to another side with its 8 tables and a bar, serves mostly as a card room.  No dinners are served at Burning Tree.  It is such a private setting that one member, having just completed his round, showered and walked into the nook and started a game of cards - stark naked.  The walls throughout the club are adorned with caricatures of past and current members (you have to be a member for 10 years before your caricature is allowed on the walls).  Collectively, the pictures are a veritable who’s who of Washingtonians, past and present.  It’s as warm and inviting a clubhouse as I’ve ever seen - a place to go and relax even if your golfing years are behind you.

One more story about Burning Tree.  My caddie was an old black guy named Gus who had been caddying at BT for 45 years.  He told us that he was once carrying Dwight Eisenhower’s bag in the late 50s.  Ike was playing MacArthur (or someone like that) in a casual match.  At the ninth green MacArthur conceded a three foot putt to Ike to halve a hole.  As Ike reached down to pick up the ball, Gus piped up and said, “you’re going to have to putt that Mr. President.”  Ike smiled, winked at Gus and proceeded to putt the ball as he understood clearly that Gus had a side bet going with MacArthur’s caddie.  


« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #17 on: December 21, 2002, 06:19:15 AM »
Dear Looking for the Light:

I will bother to answer your questions and respond to your post when you become man (or woman) enough to post your real name.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #18 on: December 21, 2002, 06:20:29 AM »
as rpurd said:

> really love these anonymous guest posters.  Why not show yourself......or are you gutless.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Patrick_Mucci

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #19 on: December 21, 2002, 07:15:42 AM »
Looking for light,

You are correct, one is welcome to come on this site looking to learn and discuss architecture.

However, in order to be more credible, to be more responsible and accountable for your posts, and to be on an equal footing with others in any of the discssions, you need to eliminate your anonymity and post under your real name.

Martha gave Bryant Gumbel a pass when she deliberately traded her exposure on HBO for her beloved principles.
Another abominable double standard.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #20 on: December 21, 2002, 07:33:50 AM »
Pat:

Well said.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Jonathan Cummings

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #21 on: December 21, 2002, 10:24:52 AM »
Here's a little known fact on Burning Tree.  It was once on GOLFWEEK's top 100 classical course list...  JC
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Coral_Ridge

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #22 on: December 21, 2002, 11:41:21 PM »
I use Coral Ridge on golfclubatlas, but my name is Jon Davis.  I happen to agree with what "guest" and "Looking for the Light" have said with regards to this particular issue, and how it relates to this web site.  It general it does not matter if they use the real names or not.  What matters more is honest and respectful discussion.  Political references and remarks is not why I come to this great web site.
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »

Paul Richards

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2002, 07:29:38 AM »
Coral Ridge:

I respect what you said.  But I also do not come to this website to have people take cheap shots at me when they don't even have the guts enough to use their own name.

« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

ForkaB

Re: Burning Tree
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2002, 08:06:47 AM »
Jonathan

Thanks for re-printing your excellent review of Burning Tree.  It makes we want to play the place (even though I am on the side of the pinko lesbian agitators on the other issue which seems to have consumed this site and this thread).  I personally like the focus on the overall ambience and "look and feel" of the course rather than just some dry "430 yads, cut driver to the right side of the fairway, mid-iron to a two tier green with a fall off to the left....." rendition.

I also don't mind anonymous posters, as long as they stay generally on topic and ask honest questions.  I've never really understood why others get so hot under the collar about them.  If any poster is talking rubbish, just ignore them--whether they be anonymous or even a Doyen.  It has worked well for me......
« Last Edit: December 31, 1969, 07:00:00 PM by 1056376800 »