Mission Impossible? Low Cost Private Clubs

[Jim_Kennedy]

Sean,
Your 'outline' has been done many times. There are quite a good number of semi-private courses in the US where membership is relatively inexpensive and the golf is fun, minus the frills. There are also a number of existing private clubs where the above is also true.

[John Keenan]

My understanding from traveling in the UK is that many clubs keep the  costs  down by being semi-private. Really not a bad option allowing non-members to pay for play.

Other issue is the dreaded special assessment. Tough issue for retired members who really do not want top write a check for 25-25K for a new spa!  Curious as to onions on equity versus non-equity?  

[Andy Doyle]

Friends of mine that are members of a nearby local golf club tell me that their monthly assessment is about to increase.  Why?  After a previous individual assessment plus an increase in the monthly fees to cover the cost of a complete course renovation, new clubhouse addition, pro shop, men's locker room & grill, fitness center, etc. - the tennis players at the club are pissed because their facilities haven't been upgraded.

Mission creep.

[Jeff Shelman]

A thread like this makes me very happy with my decision to join the club I joined.

While I wouldn't say that it's low cost, it certainly isn't high-cost either. The best thing is that we're a golf club. No tennis courts. No pool. No paddle tennis. No fitness.

There is a movement to do some work on our clubhouse, but we have spent more than a million on the golf course over the past five years.

Now is it the greatest course in the Twin Cities? No. Is it pretty good. Certainly. We've had a US Am qualifier, the state four-ball and two local qualifiers for the women's open in recent years.

Oh, and you can walk whenever you want, getting a game is never a problem and we have a lot fewer assholes than a lot of clubs do.

Is there a market for this? I certainly think so. At a time when almost every club here is looking for members, we're only three short of being full. We've also not had to cut our downstroke to bargain basement levels either (was 15k or 17,500 on 9/11, it went down to 10K and is again up to 17.5K)

[SB]

If you're going to argue Long Island vs. the rest of the world, there are a couple key factors that go into the equation:

1)  Operating Costs.  Operating costs for the NY area are higher in certain areas.  Some numbers may stagger you.  The property taxes for an 18 hole club on Long Island are upwards of $500K vs $30K most other places. As Pat mentioned, the average club spends north of $1M on course maintenance.  It's not for flowers, it's mainly labor.  I watched the staff at NGLA use hand rotary mowers to cut the grass around bunkers (and they have a LOT of bunkers).  Club managers and head pros can make $150K or more, double or triple what clubs in other areas make.  Utilities to heat and cool giant clubhouses, and Long Island has the highest utility rates in the country.

2)  Debt.  As noted, areas with primarily new clubs have acquisition/construction costs.  Most clubs in FL have $500K or so a year of debt, while most clubs on Long Island have little or no debt.  This should theoretically balance #1, but it doesn't.

3)  Exclusivity.  18 hole clubs on Long Island feel like they can only handle 250-300 members.  18 hole clubs elsewhere have 400-500 comfortably.  That right there means that ALL fees (dues, green fees, bud light) have to be double.

Outside of the expectations on Long Island, you can easily have a private club with low costs, if run correctly.  I may be repeating myself, but we have a group of private clubs here in Atlanta that have $400 initiation fees and dues of $99 per month.  Pretty decent courses, too.

[Mike_Golden]

Despite naysayers, I know my outline is possible.  The key is cheap and cheerful.  The course will not be of outstanding architectural merit and the course would look scruffy around the edges.  You can't have it all on a grand a year, but you can have good friends and good times.  Golf isn't all about architecture and maintenance.  I would have thought there would be many more out there who share my sentiments.  Keep it simple.

Ciao

Sean

Sean,

The sarcasm isn't needed.  There are many semi-private clubs in the US that would meet your criteria.  They just don't exist in large metropolitan areas.  There was a thread recently about cheap places to play if you want to go back and look.  The key is that in order to be inexpensive, there needs to be public play, so a private club isn't in the cards.  My current club, Solutia, in Pensacola, costs less than $1K per year with no initiation;  my former club, Lake Merced GC in San Francisco, now costs $12K per year with $120K upfront.  The only amenity at Solutia is the snack bar, run by Ms. Frankenstein, while Lake Merced, like most upscale private clubs, has an outstanding clubhouse, great food, and mostly great service.  You can't compare the two, they are completely different, just as you can't expect many of the people who participate on GCA and have belonged to upscale private clubs for a long time to understand how a lower echelon club operates.  The funny thing is that Solutia is a real good golf course, not World Class by any means, but not indicative of a cheapy either.  I seem to remember that Wild Horse has an annual rate of $500 or something, that would be certainly one that has both architecture and economy.

[Bill Gayne]

Not that anyone in this group suffers from ADD   but the title  of the tread is "Low cost Private Clubs." Semi-private clubs are not private clubs in my book.

[Top100Guru]

Good point Bill.............I was just getting ready to address that myself.......

Pat is right.............land aquisition costs are the "primary" cost associated with membership........but unless where design/architect fee's are done for $1 (like Pete Dye & probably others have done in the past) and land is either donated or given for a "Really Cheap" price, you really cannot fit into a "Good Low Cost Private Club Model".......unless of course, you have 5,000 members, now that would probably work!!!

[Wayne_Kozun]

Not that anyone in this group suffers from ADD   but the title  of the tread is "Low cost Private Clubs." Semi-private clubs are not private clubs in my book.

Well the original post compares private clubs in the US to clubs in other countries and most of the private clubs in the UK that have reasonable fees would be called semi-private in the US.  Clubs such as Royal Dornoch, Cruden Bay, North Berwick, Carnoustie, etc. will accept pretty much any paying visitor, sometimes requiring a handicap certificate.  From what I here even Muirfield allows visitors if you arrange it far enough in advance.

Other countries such as Japan are more expensive and Canada is very similar to the US in the structure and cost of its private clubs.

But don't forget the laws of supply and demand- if a club is really good and really cheap then it will have such a large waiting list that you could never join unless you got in at the outset.

Isn't there a certain club in Georgia that holds a tournament every April that has very reasonable fees but is rather hard to join?

[Anthony_Nysse]

Pat-
  I don't know what exact numbers, but take a course like Kingley Club-They DO NOT have a $1,000,000 maintenance shop, I would guess that they DO NOT have a $1,000,000 irrigation system, they DO NOT have a glorious clubhouse (It's perfect in my mind-shirts, food and a bathroom) they DO NOT walk mow greens, tees or approaches, have fescue fairways=minimal fungicides and fertilizer, they DO NOT have a ton of rough to mow, and have a small maintenance staff, maybe 8 guys or so. I don't even know if there is $500,000 in equipment in the building, and I would be shocked if their maintenance budget is anything more than $500,000...like I said, not knowing what their dues are, I would have to say that Kingley is a pretty good model and a Top 25 club.....Now that I think of it, seems like Greywalls has many things similar-Having only seen Kingsley, I cannot see why a course would need much more-the conditions were great, the staff was fantastic and friendly and the golf course offers endless variety...it's a club I'd love to call home-A very special place.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC

[Scott Stearns]

this type of club will never again happen here in the new york area.  land costs are too high.  in addition no one has mentioned the time and cost, both in the form of out of pockets and interest expense, that the permitting process would chew up.  i can think of few prople willing to put up with a two year permitting process without the prospect of some profit, or an ultra exclusive facility, at the end.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tony Nysse,

In viewing The Kingsley Club's website, it seems like they incurred significant capital expenditures, including residence cabins, dining facilities, etc., etc..

Since the golf course opened in 2000 I'd be curious to know what the intititation and dues are for founding, regular and national members, the three categories they offer.

Perhaps someone more familiar with the club can provide the missing information.

I like the over bet on $ 10,000 for the first year.

[Dan_Callahan]

Slightly off topic, but the greatest deal I have ever seen was offered a few years ago at the Orchards in Mass. In an effort to raise capital to improve the course, the club was offering a lifetime membership (with cart) for a one-time payment of $30,000. Nothing else to pay . . . ever.

With the work that was done to prepare the course for the women's Open, members are left with one of the best layouts in the Northeast.

[ChipOat]

SBusch and Patrick Mucci said it right.  I've seen the #'s at both a club on LI and in suburban Philadelphia.  Quality doesn't come cheap around here whether you hand-mow around bunkers or not.

It's also an American thing, I think.

2 examples:

1) The Links Golf Club could have stayed open if they had spiffed the place up enough to go from 40+ members to 300 (the minimum required in a high cost area like Long Island); it isn't clear they had enough land to improve the facilities that much so the equity members sold the property.  These folks had ultra-deep pockets but the costs of a "new and improved" Links just didn't seem do-able.

2) Some years ago (30+?), 2 wonderful old "real gentlemen's" clubs in St. Louis that had been around forever and had adjoining VERY old fashioned 9 hole courses decided to merge.  Neither was attracting enough members (average age was about 65 anyway) and the costs were rising.  Out of necessity, they got together, made it a very old fashioned 18 hole course with a single clubhouse, and did OK for awhile.  As the world required ever bigger and fancier, even the single old fashioned club couldn't keep up and was considering "other options".  I never heard the final solution but Old Warson, Bellerive and St. Louis CC are still around.

[Dan_Lucas]

Tony,

We do have the $1,000,000 irrigation system.

Pat,

Memberships are not my dept. but the regular membership (inside 75 mile radius w/primary residence) is $30k initiation and approx. $3500/yr. dues. National is $15 ($5k down, remainder over next 3 yrs.) and approx. $2500/yr. dues.

Dan

[Brian_Sleeman]

Extremely advanced irrigation here at Greywalls, and here are the numbers:

Initiation: $900
Annual Dues: $900

National members pay one-time initiation plus $250 annually.

[Steve_ Shaffer]

There are many lower cost private clubs outside of major metropolitan areas in Pennsylvania. I played at an outing last year at Wyoming Valley CC(Tillinghast) near Wilkes-Barre and was startled to hear the numbers. There is one club in suburban Philadelphia that recently dropped its initiation to $2500 payable over 3 years!!!

[John_Conley]

I think the thread has taken on two lives.

If the discussion is about STARTING a "low cost private club" from SCRATCH then it is impossible.  Land costs in populated areas are too high.

If it is asking whether or not there ARE ANY, then the answer is unquestionably yes.

The "replacement cost" of Jeff Shelman's club in the Twin Cities is very high.  A couple hundred acres of land to start.  As a result, any NEW private club eschews the "low cost" model.  (See Windsong Farms and Spring Hill.)

[JohnV]

John,  That has been my theory on housing for a long time.  The cost of land is so high in many cities that you have to build a McMansion on it to justify the cost of the land.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Despite naysayers, I know my outline is possible.  
The key is cheap and cheerful.  The course will not be of outstanding architectural merit and the course would look scruffy around the edges.  You can't have it all on a grand a year, but you can have good friends and good times.
I can do that at a local bar with friends as well, but, I prefer the challenge offered by the architecture.[/color]

[size=4x]

Golf isn't all about architecture and maintenance.  [/color][/size]

You must be kidding[/color]

I would have thought there would be many more out there who share my sentiments.  Keep it simple.



If that's the case, why not play on a football or soccer field ?

Golf is everything about architecture, it's what seperates the sport from bowling and tennis.[/color]

[Patrick_Mucci]

Extremely advanced irrigation here at Greywalls, and here are the numbers:

Initiation: $900
Annual Dues: $900

National members pay one-time initiation plus $250 annually.

Brian,

Isn't Greywalls a public golf course ?[/color]

[John_Conley]

Patrick:

I think it might be not only public-access, but municipal as well.

[SB]

John is right.  The discussion was about old british clubs vs. old american clubs.  Most older clubs in the US are more expensive than british clubs because they spend so much on a variety of stuff, primarily labor.  It all depends on management, and ultimately the board.  Even on Long Island, dues for high quality courses range from $7K to 22K per year.  And it may (or may not) surprise you that some of the cheapest have some of the best architecture.  In Atlanta, dues range from $4K to 6K per year for the top clubs, less for semi-private.  There are ways to lower the dues, but clubs choose not to.

[Steve Curry]

You all need to visit the Berkshires

Berkshire Hills CC, Tillinghast
Cranwell, Stiles and Vankleek
Stockbridge GC, ? but very good
Taconic GC, Stiles and Vankleek
Wahconah, Stiles and Vankleek
Wyantenuck, Banks

Most clubs here are still under $1,500 for everything and low initiation fees, less than $1,000.

Clubhouses can be productive if you don't have 14 wait staff to serve 3 people for breakfast.

Tom D.,

We had 4 maintenance carts, well 3 and a cushman for a puny 9 hole course when I started as high school summer help in the mid 80s.  I don't think having too many maintenance vehicles is such a strain, they should last longer in that case as well.

Steve

[Brian_Sleeman]

Brian,

Isn't Greywalls a public golf course ?[/b][/color]

Marquette Golf Club is semi-private, public play is permitted on both courses with certain tee time restrictions.