News:

Welcome to the Golf Club Atlas Discussion Group!

Each user is approved by the Golf Club Atlas editorial staff. For any new inquiries, please contact us.


Adam_F_Collins

Architects: Why do you post here? And drainage...
« on: August 30, 2005, 08:39:34 AM »
...why don't you?

I know that in my own work, I can't stand Graphic Design publications. I can't stand the same old designer banter - the same discussions - same name-dropping of theorists and books.

I can't stand graphic designers for the most part.

So why do you come here? What brings you back? Why take time out of your busy schedule to answer so many questions from people who are outside the field?
« Last Edit: August 31, 2005, 11:49:10 PM by Adam_Foster_Collins »

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #1 on: August 30, 2005, 08:40:49 AM »
And to the architect lurkers...

Drop us a line to say why you keep your heads down.
(I really don't expect a reply from you, but I do wonder)

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #2 on: August 30, 2005, 09:01:48 AM »
Adam,

On more than one occasion, I have asked myself that same question.  But no matter who I speak with or write to about the subject of golf design, or just the game itself and no matter what their background might be, I believe there is and always be something for me to learn from each person and in time, given the right time, place and circumstance, apply it to my work.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #3 on: August 30, 2005, 09:50:48 AM »
Adam,

I wonder why I do post here some times!

I suppose I thought I could edumacate some of you, both in the good way, and in some of the unrealistic expectations you have as a group.  I recall offering you all up a topo of what was to become the Quarry at Giants Ridge as a routing excersize, etc.  I have always been dissapointed when some of my "philosophical" topics get less response than a "Lets bash Fazio" thread, as I thought that would be the main purpose of a site like this.

As I see newbie gca 's, like Kelly, Forrest, etc. come on here, I see they also START that way.....

In my case, I feel if I can't write down my design philosophy, I may not know what it is, so I enjoy the banter, the thoughts you put in, etc.  I also just enjoy writing personally (witness my Cybergolf.com, Golf Course News and Paul Daley contributions) I am also a little less sensitive to professional criticisms than others apparently are.

I think my participation has gone way down here. I started about the time of the Ron Whitten interview, when he made me aware of the site in a phone conversation.  I probably hit the first hundred posts in a week, the next 100 in a month, and so on.  I noticed I just went over 1800 posts, and I think I was stuck in the 1700's for a year.  My enthusiasm for posting waxes and wanes depeding on topic and time constraints.  And, I think I see the same pattern out of Forrest, Kelly, etc.

Overall, its a cool place, and the randomness is a strength and weakness.  All in good fun, and I have learned a few things, and some of those have even shown up in my work.

I hate to speak for other gca's, but I know many, if not most, look in as time permits, but feel its unprofessional, or at least worry that a comment may get misinterpreted.  I get comments from many gca lurkers that most don't have the time to post. (I have a very slow printer that allows me to make a few posts in between tasks - it would probably be cheaper overall just to get a new printer!) Others realize what I hint at above - we aren't going to change anyones mind about anything, so why try?

Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

A_Clay_Man

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #4 on: August 30, 2005, 10:00:36 AM »

 and I have learned a few things, and some of those have even shown up in my work.


Jeff- I think this is paramount, and you should be congratulated on your honest post(s).`

« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 10:01:06 AM by Adam Clayman »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #5 on: August 30, 2005, 11:36:47 AM »
Jeff and Scott,

Thanks for answering this question, I think if we're going to do things right we'll learn to pay more attention to the real issues you guys face in the field.

I think many on here like to discuss subjects not necessarily relevant to building golf courses today so while your comments should ring louder than they actually do we all greatly appreciate your insights and input.

Jeff, I think your last sentence is not (and does not need to be) necessarily true but it can feel that way from your perspective. If one or two people hear what you say and digest it they will look at things differently next time. Not everyone though (as you know) is edjumacable. :)

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #6 on: August 30, 2005, 12:07:38 PM »
Jes,

The only way to appreciate and perhaps really understand what we do face in the field is to come into the field with us.  I don't speak for other GCA's as a whole, but the fair number I do know, and certainly me, would welcome anyone who is sincerely interested to join us
* Scott Witter in the field.

To me it is sort of like being on a trip somewhere and seeing/experiencing something incredible, then looking around you but not having someone there to share it with.  Call me old fashion, but it's a lot more fun to share the experience with someone else who also may appreciate the moment as you do.

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #7 on: August 30, 2005, 12:11:18 PM »
Hey does anyone know why when I wrote the words us
* Scott Witter in my second sentence it replaced it with my name?  I've never seen this happen before?

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2005, 12:11:57 PM »
Crap, it did it again???

Adam_F_Collins

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2005, 12:18:41 PM »
what were the characters you put in? (ex: a + b + ")


JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2005, 12:18:54 PM »
Scott,

I would bet those GCA's that contribute here are of similar mindset as you. I know that I should, and plan to, make the effort to learn more about current projects in reasonable travel distance to Philadelphia and contact the appropriate person whether its you or another architect on board here. Thank you very much for verbalizing that by the way.

Jim
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 12:19:06 PM by JES II »

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2005, 12:34:03 PM »
Adam,

I used in this example, the word "us" immediately followed by a backslash and followed this with the word "me"

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2005, 12:44:25 PM »
Jeff and Scott,


Jeff, I think your last sentence is not (and does not need to be) necessarily true but it can feel that way from your perspective. If one or two people hear what you say and digest it they will look at things differently next time. Not everyone though (as you know) is edjumacable. :)

That last comment came directly from a well know gca just the other day. Not necessarily my opinion of what is true.  But, it does express some of the exasperation many in the design field have with this site - from time to time, certain posters are going to find a way to not believe what we do here in modern times isn't the best response to the conditions we know.

I had a discussion earlier this morning with another well known gca office (occaisionally discussed here)  They are being required to format their specs in the "Standard Construction Specification Institute" format for a project.  We discussed how much more the design field is being pressed towards a level of sophistication and legalese that makes the "oh, lets leave a blowout bunker here" about 5% of our total project consideration, down from the 10% it is now.

I don't like it either, but it is a fact of life.  And, I know that non industry people certainly would love to discuss gca in fantasy terms of every site being Sand Hills.  But, those are really sites you get only a few times in your career, so much of the discussion feels irrelevant to many practitioners.  Thus, they don't participate.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2005, 01:02:14 PM »
I guess that's what I was trying to say in my middle paragraph Jeff. Many of us are in fantasyland during these discussions (and even in real life ;)) The actual process of creating a golf course must be incredibly more complicated than many (definitely including me) on here can fathom.

If I were an architect I cannot imagine participating on here much, but you have to admit there is some good material here on occasion and for that it must be worth visiting.  

Tom_Doak

  • Karma: +3/-1
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2005, 06:34:41 PM »
Jeff:

I would agree with you that for most designers, designing their courses is less like Sand Hills and more like the insides of a spec book.  Thankfully, not for me!

But don't you suppose that the ASGCA has in fact helped make the situation much more complicated over the years by trying to make the business more "professional"?  I mean, if you just said you were a bunch of ex golf pros who never graduated college, like Old Tom Morris :) , they would find a way to let you build your courses without it having to be on CAD and disclaimed in seven languages.

One of the reasons I post here is because I truly believe that designing a golf course is much simpler than most people make it.  That's really the whole idea behind minimalism, at least in practice*:  why re-shape areas which are okay now?  And why put in a million dollars worth of catch basins and drainage if the land already drains?  It's not that I don't know how to do that stuff, I just think it's much less necessary than others do.

* (Other than it sounds good and it gets me a lot of jobs.)
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 06:35:37 PM by Tom_Doak »

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2005, 06:50:06 PM »
You are a lucky man, Tom Doak.....at least for now.  I suspect that you are affected more by regulations than you were when you started, like the rest of us.

I think its a function of the fact that golf courses cost a lot of money, and by and large, any organization with the funds to build a course is sophisticated enough to have lawyers and accountants who demand accountability for those funds, and adherance to the multitude of laws facing developers.  Hence, ever more sophisticated contracts.   Throw in the regulations we face, and the idea that putting in a few less catch basins, or grading a bit less reduces those demands.  

I don't think it is ASGCA trying to make things more complicated, not at all. We spend a lot of time defending the right of a Pete Dye to work the way he wants to - without plans and specs, without a landscape architect or engineers licence, etc.  I think the group has simply responded to the demands of the profession as they develop, edumacating its members on environmental laws, ADA, and a whole host of other factors that affect design like never before.  

However, many members do pride themselves on being able to take on difficult tasks, such as designing in old quarries, environmentally sensitive sites, small sites, etc. and we encourage people to believe that overall, our members are best qualified to take on those jobs - to separate ourselves from those who just like to play in the dirt, like PGA Tour pro "consultants."


Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2005, 07:00:43 PM »
Tom,

Looking back over most of your projects, how many can you say that were built on clay, or at least significantly clay based subsoils?  From my research, I don't find too many which fit this category, but they were and continue to be built on sand.  Don't you think sand has much to do with your approach to drain or not to drain?  My academic and field experience has sure made this distinction for me.

Across upstate NY where most of my work has been, the soils are VERY heavy and do not free drain on their own and I have a choice to move more earth to gain the slope to surface drain (my sites have been fairly flat and lacking in character), or put drainage in.  Putting drainage in these soils is MUCH less expensive than moving earth.  In the last two courses I had built, my total drainage budget for each course ranged around $265,000 and I had all the pipe and CB's I needed to get the job done.

I'm sure you were exagerating with your reference to a million dollars worth of drainage, or else those designing and building those projects don't know what they are doing, because I could think of some REALLY COOL waterfalls I would design on my projects if I had that kind of $!


Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2005, 07:03:02 PM »
Yeah, Tom was exaggerating. The most I have ever spent on draining a golf course was 600K.
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2005, 07:04:34 PM »
Ah Jeff, your are always good for a chuckle.

Do I hear 650K...

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2005, 07:08:41 PM »
Ummm...now that I think of it, I wonder if I think more like those miminimalistisitstsss or whatever they call themselves than those other designers Tom was referring to, because my drainage budgets don't break the bank or alter that lovely flat lifeless character on the sites I had to work with.

Minimalism...guess I'll have to look that up.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2005, 07:12:42 PM »
Scott,

From your first post, I think you have the right idea.  In engineering, they say a good rule of thumb is that the cost of bridge piers should about equal the cost of the span.

I have always felt that the cost of drainage and earthmoving ought to be about equal in most cases.  On gently rolling land, you won't have much of either, on flat or steep land you will have more, but usually, they are in balance.  Not always, but usually.

For that matter, describe "break the bank" for me, if you get a chance.  From experience, I know that I can save a $400 catch basin, but if that keeps water from concentrating (as it always does after a run of 300 feet) maybe I can save the owner at least $400 worth of swale sodding or washout repair during grow in......even if I cost him a few hundred a year in shoe cleaning and shining revenue later on.  So, like life itself, its always a balancing act.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 07:15:09 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #21 on: August 30, 2005, 07:21:12 PM »
Jeff,

I would go a step further and say a lot depends on the type of earth you are moving and the method in which it is moved.  By this I mean top-loading trucks, pans or scrapers, versus running the pans on good soil conducive for this type of equipment to make the operation much more efficient.  Or if you don't have to pick the material up and are able to push it to locations where you need it by large dozers...but you know all this, I'm just making a point for those GCA lurkers behind the curtain.. over to the left...see him, the guy in the round glasses with his sneakers untied!  Yeah, him.

It also depends on the diameter of the drainage pipe as well.  Bigger main drains are certainly expensive and quite disruptive to the site and hence, I would agree with you regarding the comparison to earthmoving, but by in large, I have found earthmoving to be noticeably more expensive in my neck of the woods.

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #22 on: August 30, 2005, 07:32:01 PM »
Jeff,

Break the bank, by this I mean and I completely understand the balancing act and the give and take with these two interrelated items, apparently, some of us are fortunate with no need to worry about this sort of silly thing...but, I have been able to get the design accomplished without forcing the issue through the overuse of drain pipes and CB,s, drain inlets, whatever you want to call them.

However, that said, I will not make a scarifice in good sensible drainage if it simply calls for it given the situation such as you describe.  I think it makes more sense to put the inlet in the ground, I try not to ever exceed 200 feet, and there are many ways to do and not have it noticed.  As you note, it isn't worth it when you begin to consider all of the factors which are influenced by draining or not draining.  Hopefully commonsense will prevail, it usually does for me.

Jeff_Brauer

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #23 on: August 30, 2005, 07:49:19 PM »
In general, earthmoving seems to have become relatively less expensive in my 28 years in the "biz."  Seems its always been around a buck a yard, maybe less in the 80's, but still about $1.50 now, sometimes less, and certainly less than the CPI would indicate.  

I posted a few weeks ago about the earthmover bidding at $0.59 per CY to bankrupt his company, but am not talking about that unique situation. It has been explained to me that ever bigger pans and buckets, including the pull behind tractor type which cost about $150K per unit as opposed to CAT scrapers at half a mil a copy account for much of that - less debt on machinery and greater capacity.  That includes toploading, which used to go for a buck a yard extra, but now rarely costs much more than other dirt.

But, I am sure YOU know that, but that horn rimmed glasses guy is still hangin out, and I worry about a lawsuit against Ran if he trips over those shoelaces. ;)

On the other hand, PVC drain pipe really hasn't gone up with inflation either. Always seems to hang at about $1 per lineal foot, plus or minus.  Now, irrigation seems to be a different story, and I accuse my irrigation designers of being related to Jesse James, because they heist my budgets far too often!

Another question for inquiring minds - is small diameter pipe the best value in drainage?  Since a circular area rises with the square of the diameter, a 8 inch pipe has not twice, but 4 times the capacity of a 4" pipe.  Yet, it only (at a buck a foot) only costs twice as much.  Which do you recommend?

I go with the 8", as you might guess.  As Katrina proves in a big way - never underestimate the damaging power of water.  And, most golf courses have drainage designed to 'everyday storm standards" if that, so they tend to be way to small anyway, in the sense that if they overflow a few times a month, at some point, the cost of lost revenue exceeds the cost of debt on the larger pipe.

Going back to the topic of greater sophisitcation, eyeballing drain pipes rather than using rudimentary drainage calculation formulas is an area where I think many gca's do need to get more sophisticated.  Its also an area where I see great potential for lawsuits, and a gca going to court saying that designing for health safety and welfare just didn't seem as important as minimalism will not fly.

How about adapting to changing conditions?  When I was green as peas, 1% was considered adequate slope for drainage.  That has gradually gone up through collective experience to 2, 2.5 and now 3%.  With the advent of more sodded fairways and poor irrigation water, I would say the minimum slope on some projects should be 4% to make it work properly.  So, depending on a lot of factors, on one site, leaving a 1.75% grade as is would be acceptable. On another, it would not.

Just my opinion based on experience, even if I wish it weren't so.  Made worse by the fact that we work side by side with engineers who use much, much higher standards, and are probably whispering in the Owners ear about what incompetents we are compared to them!  And, from their perspective, we are.......so in a way, I guess I am disagreeing with Tom Doak - whether we want it to be or not, others judge whether we should simplify the process, not ourselves.  And, sometimes, it just does have to be more complicated than we like.  

Its an interesting subject to me - the floating notion of community standards.  They float, but like balloons, mostly float upwards.  Whether that is the duty of care to warn of lightning, or to protect the enviroment, or the rights of the disabled, the gca doesn't decide, someone else does, all too often through a lawsuit alleging negligence.  Or in other cases, word of mouth in the industry about your ability to produce effective golf courses.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 07:57:20 PM by Jeff_Brauer »
Jeff Brauer, ASGCA Director of Outreach

Scott Witter

Re:Architects: Why do you post here? To the lurkers...
« Reply #24 on: August 30, 2005, 08:21:49 PM »
Jeff,

I really need to get your contractors up our way, overall, there still seems to be a sizeble gap between top-loading and pans, etc.

On the other hand, my client just purchased a boat load of 4" PVC pipe 20" rigid lengths smooth wall interior, for a bunker project to start soon and the price was .51/LF, not bad.

Yes, the larger diameter size (size does matter!) is the smart way to travel and it doesn't even take a storm surge like Katrina to show its ugly side in a big hurry.

Irrigation pipe though is absolutely highway robbery, but since the base product is petroleum based, I guess there are no surprises there!

Well, for good or for bad, and it can really be a pain in the ass many times, I am a licensed LA and I carry a lot of liability insurance, NY requires it as do many other states in order to practice...I also have 3 years of civil engineering in college, dropped out and discovered LA instead, hey its never to late..., so for me and my family, I'm with you on the health, safety and welfare gig.

Engineers, don't even get me started, oh those high and mighty son of a...

Hey I'm all with you on simplifying ourselves, but it just isn't as carefree as Tom makes it sound and therefore there is merit in making many more who "practice" GCA responsible and accountable even if they think it is such a waste of time...I could be doing other great things!

Community standards, now there is an huge contradiction of terms and an oxymoran for ya!  Hey, why don't we just throw in Zoning as a topic and see what kind of a forest fire that starts.

Hey Jeff, nice chattin with ya, but I really need to get back to work, you know, someone has to punch that calculator to size all those darn pipes, CB's and stuff...   You didn't really think I was going to call up our local PGA pro and ask him to do it did you, normally I would, but he is too busy sketching out a routing on the back of a napkin for his next project in the Bahamas!  His plane leaves in a few hours and he still has two holes to go and three more gin & tonics to suck down.