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TEPaul

A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« on: August 29, 2005, 08:17:27 AM »
What's the possiblitly of a huge number of supers getting together and basically estabishing a revolution of maintenance practices?

I thought of this vis-a-vis what Steve Okula said on another thread that he would never think to maintain his course the way he'd personally like to but only the way his membership wants him to.

I say to you supers out there in America---band together and begin to maintain your courses with dialed down artificial irrigation and far less chemicals. If your memberships and their committees ask you what the hell you think you're doing just tell them all to f....the hell off and leave the maintenance practices to the guys who know something about maintenance practices.

If they imply they're gonna fire you tell them---"Oh yeah, and who in the hell do you think you're gonna replace me with, one of the jackasses on your Green Committee?"

If enough of you ban together this response will work. If some super crosses the picket line he'll be pelted into submission by large and very hard loose impediments and perhaps even substantial movable obstructions.

It wouldn't be a bad idea either if you tell those jackasses at your club they should log on to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com if they want to cry on someone's shoulder. ;)

I'm calling HVGC's Scott Anderson this morning about this. I think he's just about ready to lead this revolution!  ;)

With any luck the USGA's Green Section will see the handwriting on the wall and get on the revolution train immediately---that is unless they want to see the same thing happen to the Green Section or even Golf House at Far Hills as happened to the Bastille.  ;)
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 08:21:55 AM by TEPaul »

JESII

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2005, 09:41:34 AM »
Organize the GCSAA with one objective, take golf course conditioning decisions out of the hands of members and keep them with the guys who know what's going on.  

wsmorrison

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2005, 09:47:08 AM »
Can I bring a torch and pitchfork to the revolution?  I'm enlisting to fight the fight as a private under Generallisimo Anderson!

Tom Paul, ex-Marine, can be the head drill instructor  ;D

TEPaul

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2005, 10:27:22 AM »
"Tom Paul, ex-Marine, can be the head drill instructor "

Wayne:

That's right, I am an Ex-Marine. Matter of fact, it's because of me the USMC came up with their slogan "A few Good Men".

Most think that means the entire Corps is made up of "good men" but in truth it means that many of them are good men even if occasionally people like me get through it without a dishonorable discharge.

Basically, I'm way too smart for that kind of discipline. I think too much and ask too many questions about why things need to be done the way they are. And the very last thing anyone is supposed to do in the Marines, particularly bootcamp is to question anything, particularly authority and discipline

I guess I failed almost every test they gave me except a couple that I passed with flying colors. That time I had my bright red PT skivvies on when the rest of the company had their white skivvies on just might be the most embarrassing thing that ever happened to a boot at Parris Island.

Unbelievably, the Marines give their boots at places like Pariris Island a really comprehensive test on the Marine Corps's history. I'm sure they still can figure out how I got 110% on that test.

During that forced five mile run with all your equipment they also realized I could do it although I told them I didn't see the point of running like that and if the enemy was chasing me I'd just turn around and shoot his ass and if my rifle didn't work I'd cut his balls off with my bayonnet and if I didn't have that I'd bite his ear off or even piss on him if I had to.

But better than any boot in the history of Parris Island I past that trick question test every DI asks every boot because any conceivable answer is supposed to be a no win situation that gives them the automatic opportunity to pummel the crap out of you.

That trick question is when the DI asks you if you'd like to sleep with his wife! Just think about that! How can any boot answer a question like that without giving the DI the automatic opportunity to beat the crap out of him?

But the answer I gave that DI, because it was incredibly complex and philosophical, he still can't figure out, I'm sure. Anyway, I was the only boot in the history of the corps who didn't get the crap beaten out of him after being asked that trick question. That's when they asked me if I wanted to go into intelligence but I told them I'd rather just go back to Long Island and New York's night life where I came from not realizing before I enlisted what a truly dumb mistake I was about to make by enlisting in the United States Marine Corps that I was convinced did have a fairly good number of mindless albeit good wacko killers like them.
« Last Edit: August 29, 2005, 10:34:23 AM by TEPaul »

Kelly Blake Moran

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2005, 10:55:39 AM »
They may have to unionize to help protect their positions.  I have often wondered if soem form of a superintendents union is needed to counter some of the abusive practices of greens committees and clubs. :o

TEPaul

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2005, 11:43:20 AM »
I also propose that the slogan of this supers' revolution be Brad Klein's hilarious lead-in at many of the talks he gives to golf clubs on architecture.

Brad's lead-in goes something like;

"The first thing I realized about golf architecture and golf clubs is that rich people can be real idiots."

Marc Haring

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2005, 02:40:02 PM »
There are still many courses with simply appalling maintenance practices but they are getting more and more in the minority. Firm, fast, brown and natural are becoming the accepted norm at least in the UK. The worst case of negative maintenance meld I’ve seen recently was at the course below. They lost a couple of the fairways last summer when they got so waterlogged and loaded up with chemicals they just gave up and died. And you could pretty much lose your ball on the greens.

The problem is they are fully booked with trophy hunting suckers eager to part with £100 to play.



P.S. Not me taking the divot but I take full responsibility for the photoshop work.

Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2005, 04:44:34 PM »
TE PAUL...one HUGE problem here is this...the PRO shop is percieved as bringging in the money and the maintinence department is percieved as spending the money...so in an effort to better understand and reach out to the pros and general managers, isn't the GSCAA doing everything they can to combine their annual conference with these other two groups???

Personally, I think that sort of cooperation only goes so far, and radical processes must occur to bring about true change...

I'm all for letting the supers. maintain the course as they see fit.

LOCK HIM UP!!!

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #8 on: August 29, 2005, 05:06:16 PM »
Tom,
You picked a bad year (at least in the Northeast) to propose it.  Most supers are just trying to hang onto their jobs.  Even the best are under intense scrutiny and are just trying to grow grass and keep their courses alive.
Mark
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 09:54:49 PM by Mark_Fine »

Steve Okula

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2005, 04:03:02 PM »
What's the possiblitly of a huge number of supers getting together and basically estabishing a revolution of maintenance practices?

I say to you supers out there in America---band together and begin to maintain your courses with dialed down artificial irrigation and far less chemicals. If your memberships and their committees ask you what the hell you think you're doing just tell them all to f....the hell off and leave the maintenance practices to the guys who know something about maintenance practices.

If they imply they're gonna fire you tell them---"Oh yeah, and who in the hell do you think you're gonna replace me with, one of the jackasses on your Green Committee?"


Tom's been watching the movie "The Right Stuff". Superintendents are not astronauts. We're not an elite group of seven incomparably trained individuals. At any given moment, there are about ten thousand university educated and qualified individuals waiting to take out jobs at half the salary and willing to work twice the hours.

"Jackasses" is too harsh a term, at least for my membership. They are largely polite and educated people who prefer not to play out of clover. I don't hold that against them.

The idea of a GCS union has been bandied about in the GCSAA and in BIGGA. The drawback is described in my first paragraph.
The small wheel turns by the fire and rod,
the big wheel turns by the grace of God.

Joel_Stewart

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2005, 04:08:36 PM »
I say to you supers out there in America---band together and begin to maintain your courses with dialed down artificial irrigation and far less chemicals. If your memberships and their committees ask you what the hell you think you're doing just tell them all to f....the hell off and leave the maintenance practices to the guys who know something about maintenance practices.

Tom:

What happens to the supers that water the hell out of classic courses, plants trees and grows the rough 5 inches because thats the way they think an old Ross or Mackenzie course should be maintained.  I know of one super that is afraid he will lose his job if the course in green and perfect all of the time which fits 90% of the memberships.  And please don't respond "fire him".

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2005, 06:28:49 PM »
TEP -

Please Unionize...Please!!!

Just like the Patco & the NWA Mechanics?

Unionize?  What would we call it?  The United Brotherhood of Grass Farmers?

The prevailing wisdom here on this board is that once you join a club as a member, you are lobotimized by aliens in your sleep so that you can waste your time, energy and passion to sit on a committee, and voice an (Uninformed?) opinion to those aren't going to listen to you anyway.

The "Not Invented Here" or "You Never Played the Game (Designed/Maintained/Walked a course)" Syndromes run rampant here on GCA.com.  I am so sick and tired of the attitude that the "Professionals" are the only ones who know anything, and that we mere mortal members should gladly fund every possible initiative.  

Want to add a just a new tee?  To most of the "Well Meaning" contributors here, that means an expensive "Master Plan" involving multiple bids, time and extra expense when $5-15,000 of String, Topsoil, Seed, PVC Pipe and a Sprinkler Head would have done the trick.

Want to know the time it is on the GCA Board?  In the discussion group here, we'll show you how to build a Swiss Watch, along with a complete list of architechs & engineers who have designed Swiss Watches.  Of course you will only want an Analog watch as Digital is not fashionable.  The only watches that are any good are old ones (Or those that are designed to look that way). We'll also give you a list of which old watch(es) that we like the best, and who ruined them with updates to their original designs.  We'll even take your existing watch, and retrofit it back to "The Original Design Intent."  Who cares if it works properly in today's world?

My club has a maintainance budget for the golf course in excess of a million dollars.  That's before salaries and a rent free home for the Super.  Would two million do the trick?  Then we get threads on "Affordable Golf Clubs!!!!!!!"  

The Super waters to keep what grass we have got left on a solidly draining subsurface - hence excess watering as it seeps through as quick as the sprinker goes around.  Hence less than "Firm and Fast".  The greens roll well in the am.  After that, well...  Once we get to late September after aeration and sand pounding, we might get lucky with anything approaching Scotland during The Open Championship.  Maybe, if the rains hold off.

If Mother Nature cooperates, "The Super's a Genius".  If we get the dry/hot/water-boiling conditions in the Northeast/Mid-Atlantic that we got this year, "Nobody could make it work in these conditions."

Has the "Enlightened" desire for "Firm and Fast" conditions caused/added problems for the Supers this year?  You betcha!  The Disc. Grp. here has created a desire for conditions at some courses that would be unobtainable except for a gentle weaning of water, pesticide and fungicide over 15-20 years.  How many member groups are willing to endure a lifetime of iffy conditions?  Yeah, unionize.  That will get the memberships behind the Supers and save their jobs from the unenlightened!

Perhaps, more communication from the Supers to the membership that it is not feasible or practical to have "Shady Acres C.C." look like Augusta year round and S-P-E-L-L out the reasons why based upon disease, and all of the other factors that go into keeping the place playable is a better tact than unionization.

If you must Unionize, I nominate TEP as your Jimmy Hoffa.  TEP will have a bright future as fertilizer at The Meadowlands C.C.

TEP - I realize that you are writing this somewhat tonque-in-cheek, and I am as well.

Rant over.

JWK



Craig Sweet

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #12 on: August 30, 2005, 06:53:26 PM »
I think a lot of golfer at my course take their que from "golf on TV"...perfect conditions, not a maintinenece worker in sight....why can't we be more like "golf on TV"?
LOCK HIM UP!!!

Anthony_Nysse

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #13 on: August 30, 2005, 08:37:03 PM »

"Perhaps, more communication from the Supers to the membership that it is not feasible or practical to have "Shady Acres C.C." look like Augusta year round and S-P-E-L-L out the reasons why based upon disease, and all of the other factors that go into keeping the place playable is a better tact than unionization."

Much easier said than done, trust me.

Tony Nysse
Asst. Supt.
Long Cove Club
HHI, SC
Anthony J. Nysse
Director of Golf Courses & Grounds
Apogee Club
Hobe Sound, FL

TEPaul

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #14 on: August 30, 2005, 09:08:32 PM »
JamesK:

I can certainly understand the reasons for your rant, and yes this thread was started sort of tongue in cheek.

However, this is or should be a serious subject worthy of a good deal of discussion. This website's discussion group does see most every issue in extremely black and white terms and of course that's not all that much of an intelligent way of looking at any subject. Most all these issues to do with playablity and how agronomics factors into it in various ways are not black and white and it certainly is anything but simple or easy or quick to do. It does take time and a lot of understanding and dedication first, and obviously a membership has to support it or it'll be destined to fail along the way.

HVGC is such a case in point, perhaps the prototype club that turned things around this way. Memberships do not support these types of things automatically---a lot of work and understanding with a green committee and super needs to go into it first. Believe me, I do know---I've been on my club's green committee for years---I do know the process---it's failures and it's successes and potentials.   :)

But no course develops these kinds of wonderful playabilities until someone decides to take the first step down an admittedly long road. To be honest JamesK, the reality of getting a club moving down this long road certainly ain't easy. My club has decided to try it simply as a matter of preference but in the beginning everytime one of us proposed a direction down this road there were at least 20 people to our one who had all kinds of different reasons not to do it. This website is virtually no different---every time anyone on here proposes something there're a bunch of others who have all kinds of reasons why it won't work.

Back to HVGC again. I believe that club may've been the first to turn things around from excessive over-irrigation to excessive dryness and lack of reliance on chemicals. But was HVGC's turn-around just a matter of preference? No it was not. I had a long conversation with the man who inspired it, Linc Roden. That was 25 years ago and Linc was asked to come in as a real alternative after the course's turf was totally lost due to excessive over irrigation and disease. In about three days the course's agronomy turned BLACK and in desperation they turned to Linc as a true alternative to the way they had always done things agronomically and the club took the first step down a long road that really did get other people's attention but only eventually----it took a long long time for people to admit that Linc and his dry and organic and firm and fast policy was not totally insane.
« Last Edit: August 30, 2005, 09:21:13 PM by TEPaul »

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #15 on: August 30, 2005, 09:10:15 PM »

What's the possiblitly of a huge number of supers getting together and basically estabishing a revolution of maintenance practices?

Formally, ZERO
Informally, they're already doing this.
[/color]

I thought of this vis-a-vis what Steve Okula said on another thread that he would never think to maintain his course the way he'd personally like to but only the way his membership wants him to.

TE, you're forgeting that if you take the Kings Schilling, you do the King's bidding.  It's an employer-employee relationship.
[/color]

I say to you supers out there in America---band together and begin to maintain your courses with dialed down artificial irrigation and far less chemicals. If your memberships and their committees ask you what the hell you think you're doing just tell them all to f....the hell off and leave the maintenance practices to the guys who know something about maintenance practices.

Is that what you would call an EXIT STRATEGY ?
[/color]

If they imply they're gonna fire you tell them---"Oh yeah, and who in the hell do you think you're gonna replace me with, one of the jackasses on your Green Committee?"
There's always a cadre of young, eager assistants chomping at the bit to make the leap to Head Superintendent.
[/color]

If enough of you ban together this response will work. If some super crosses the picket line he'll be pelted into submission by large and very hard loose impediments and perhaps even substantial movable obstructions.

Like his wife wielding a baseball bat for listening to you.
[/color]

It wouldn't be a bad idea either if you tell those jackasses at your club they should log on to GOLFCLUBATLAS.com if they want to cry on someone's shoulder. ;)

I'm calling HVGC's Scott Anderson this morning about this. I think he's just about ready to lead this revolution!  ;)

With any luck the USGA's Green Section will see the handwriting on the wall and get on the revolution train immediately---that is unless they want to see the same thing happen to the Green Section or even Golf House at Far Hills as happened to the Bastille.  ;)

TEPaul is running amok.

Would someone in the Philadelphia area marshall a small group of friends to raid a farm house and institute an intervention ?

Please, anyone, stop him before he increases the ranks of the unemployed at golf clubs by multiples.
[/color]

TEPaul

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #16 on: August 30, 2005, 09:27:47 PM »
Hey Pat, instead of continually beating the drum that memberships are totally intransigent, when are you going to get on the bandwagon of starting to help convince a few to turn things around? You're sure not telling me anythng I don't know about memberships and the realities of these kinds of thngs. Don't forget I've been doing this stuff now with my club and some others for a lot of years now. There're no new wrinkles just the same tried and true processes (agronomically and membership-wise) dedicatedly applied.

Mark_Fine

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #17 on: August 30, 2005, 09:54:26 PM »
Tom,
Putting that burden on the superintendent is the wrong thing to do.  I don't know too many guys who are willing to tell their boss to take a hike and let them manage the golf course agronomics.  These guys get it, but they need someone else helping to lead the charge and the education process.  I guarantee you guys like Scott Anderson had and still have that support from someone.  

Rarely have I ever met a superintendent that loves having trees hanging over greens and crowding out the fairways.  Hardly ever will you come across a superintendent that wouldn't love to keep their course a little browner and less watered and more rough around the edges.  

The more you can help these guys with education and to stand up and take the arrows for them, the more successful they will be with their agronomics programs.  Also the longer they will hold their jobs so you can keep working with them  ;)
Mark
 

TEPaul

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #18 on: August 30, 2005, 10:06:18 PM »
Mark:

As I said, this thread is tongue and check.

Look, my club has begun to turn things around and try to go down a maintenance process to acheive more regular firm and fast conditions. I've been on the green committee for years and at the very start of this process or maintenance practices I was the first to say and am the one who constantly reminds the committee that it is US (the golf and green committee) that has to take the total responsibility for asking the super to do this. My constant refrain is that we just cannot let our membership think this is something that he's done on his own thereby putting him in the line of flack and fire.

Our 25 year super is retiring this year and his assistant is our new super. I've said a number of times that if any member goes to him and wants to complain about something that he should simply tell them to come to US and complain. I'm the first to recognize it's unfair to a super to put him on the firing line for these kinds of decisions. I feel it's the green committee that must accept the responsibility to field complaints from members.

TEPaul

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #19 on: August 30, 2005, 10:17:18 PM »
Mark:

Educating golf and green committees constantly into all the things that concern superintendents about agronomy and maintenance practices is super important. This is something that should go on constantly.

My Green Committee meets app once a month and every month at the start of the meeting I ask some question of the super to do with agronmy or maintenance practices. The supers know what I'm doing but I'm not sure the members of the committee all do---and it's been going on for a couple of years now---actually ever since we decided to go down the firm and fast road somewhat. Maybe it's something of an inside joke but I call it the "educational question of the month". The purpose is to better edcuate the committee members into some of the little things the super thinks about and worries about that has probably never even occured to most of the members of the green or golf committee.

And you know what----most every month the committee members seem to be genuinely interested, often times really fascinated. They may not realize the educational question of the month is a set-up but they definitely are getting an education!  :)

Patrick_Mucci

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #20 on: August 30, 2005, 10:53:02 PM »
TEPaul,

I've been an advocate of firm & fast, brownish-yellow-green playing conditions on every green committee that I've been on for the last 40 years.

As you know, I favor dictatorships at clubs.

I also see the trends in memberships.

You're a member at a club that your family has been at for generations.

Today, there are fewer and fewer members who fall into that category.   Fewer and fewer members understand the history, tradition and playing conditions of their course over the last fifty years.  And, that's the disconnect.

Many members are new to golf.
Many members think that what they see on TV is how their golf course should be.

I've been fighting the fight for a long, long while.
But, a revolt amongst superintendents isn't the methodology to further your cause.   I know your post was tonque in cheek.

Political Correctness, the concept that the green committee should be composed of every element of the club, is one of the biggest impediments to the proper conditioning of a golf course.   Most member's of the committee, when they're first appointed, simply don't get it.

Here is the problem as I see it.

The superintendent's job is partially dependent upon perceived playing and aesthetic conditions, especially relative to other golf courses.

The Superintendent KNOWS what he can and can't do to achieve the playing conditions the members want, and direct him to produce.

The members don't know what the ideal playing conditions are.

The USGA can be a great ally in educating and supporting the superintendent in identifying and implementing the ideal playing conditions.

The membership, the USGA and the Superintendent are often at odds because their goals can be different.

The key is to get all three in harmony with one another.

If  you have a membership that wants green, lush conditions, it doesn't matter what the superintendent wants and what the USGA recommends.

The core issue is control of the Board and Green Committee.

You have to have knowledgeable people in positions of power.
And, they have to be there, or exert their influence over the long haul.

When a club rotates Presidents, Boards, Committee Chairs and committees every two years, it's difficult to achieve continuity, in thought, concepts, funding and conditions.

I've noticed that some clubs serve as "centers of influence", and that members visiting these clubs try to import what they've observed from them to their home club.

It's important that those special clubs "get it, and get it right, first".  Then, other clubs can follow their lead.

It's hard to convince a club to undertake a tree management or tree clearing program after their members have been to Pine Valley or Augusta.

It's hard to convince a club to undertake a program where water is rationed when they've just come back from Emerald Fairways.

The real key to this process is the renounciation of what is seen on TV, which is diametrically opposed to your concepts.

TV wants lush green fairways, mowed in recognizable patterns.  TV wants brilliant white sand.  Blue or blue-green water.   Fountains, waterfalls, rock walls and all of those things that present well to the camera's eye.
TV wants mile long tees with narrow chutes.
TV wants balls that hit the greens like darts.

TV wants, TV craves all that is bad about the ideal playing conditions at golf courses.

So, do you form your committee and forbid members to watch TV, or do you form your committee with just a few people, who are knowledgeable about the game and playing conditions ?  The answer is the latter, but, you can't do that because PC dictates that you have many members from many factions on your committee.

And, even if you succeed at the committee level, you have to have a President and a Board that supports that committee.
But, whom is the Board comprised of ?

So, you see, there is no easy answer.

My way of thinking is that certain "elite GOLF clubs" have to be the leaders in this area, and that the golf magazines have to support your maintainance meld and firm & fast, brownish-yellowish-green playing conditions, and that you have to constantly remind your committee, board and members that what they see on TV is not good for their golf course.

TV has more influence over the fads that golf courses subject themselves to than almost any other factor.  It's the biggest impediment to achieving the ideal maintainance meld.

End of rant  ;D

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #21 on: August 31, 2005, 10:11:28 AM »
Pat -

Since this thread has produced a few rants including my own:
 
From Pat Mucci:

"TEPaul,

I've been an advocate of firm & fast, brownish-yellow-green playing conditions on every green committee that I've been on for the last 40 years."

Pat, I would like to see our club head down a 20 year path on a "12 Step Program" to brown-yellow-green as well - As Tony Nysse stated above, "it is alot easier said than done."  It will take salesmanship to our board and the general membership that will include:  "It's going to get worse before it gets better."


"As you know, I favor dictatorships at clubs."

Agreed!


"I also see the trends in memberships.

You're a member at a club that your family has been at for generations."

Pat, I am as well (3rd and am hoping my children can be 4th Gen.).


"Today, there are fewer and fewer members who fall into that category.  Fewer and fewer members understand the history, tradition and playing conditions of their course over the last fifty years.  And, that's the disconnect."

Agreed.


"Many members are new to golf.
Many members think that what they see on TV is how their golf course should be."

Agreed.  They are sheep.


"I've been fighting the fight for a long, long while.
But, a revolt amongst superintendents isn't the methodology to further your cause.  I know your post was tonque in cheek."

I agree, a "Storming of the Men's Grille" (Storming of the Bastille) is only going to please a crop of new Penn State Grads.  My post was a tongue-in-cheek rant as well.


"Political Correctness, the concept that the green committee should be composed of every element of the club, is one of the biggest impediments to the proper conditioning of a golf course.  Most member's of the committee, when they're first appointed, simply don't get it."

Absolutely.  But if diversity on the committee that is in charge of the most important aspect of the club/course, then the varied members of the committee should be charged with educating, reporting and rationalizing the strategies of the committee so that the membership can learn and rally behind the Super.  If your course truly wants to proceed down the road to HVCC Heaven, then all oars have to be rowing in the same direction.  The quest for Job Security among Supers is a leading cause of overwatering.


"Here is the problem as I see it.

The superintendent's job is partially dependent upon perceived playing and aesthetic conditions, especially relative to other golf courses.

The Superintendent KNOWS what he can and can't do to achieve the playing conditions the members want, and direct him to produce.

The members don't know what the ideal playing conditions are.

The USGA can be a great ally in educating and supporting the superintendent in identifying and implementing the ideal playing conditions.

The membership, the USGA and the Superintendent are often at odds because their goals can be different.

The key is to get all three in harmony with one another.

If  you have a membership that wants green, lush conditions, it doesn't matter what the superintendent wants and what the USGA recommends.

The core issue is control of the Board and Green Committee.

You have to have knowledgeable people in positions of power.
And, they have to be there, or exert their influence over the long haul.

When a club rotates Presidents, Boards, Committee Chairs and committees every two years, it's difficult to achieve continuity, in thought, concepts, funding and conditions.

I've noticed that some clubs serve as "centers of influence", and that members visiting these clubs try to import what they've observed from them to their home club.

It's important that those special clubs "get it, and get it right, first".  Then, other clubs can follow their lead.

It's hard to convince a club to undertake a tree management or tree clearing program after their members have been to Pine Valley or Augusta.

It's hard to convince a club to undertake a program where water is rationed when they've just come back from Emerald Fairways."

Agreed.


"The real key to this process is the renounciation of what is seen on TV, which is diametrically opposed to your concepts."

Completely Disagree!


"TV wants lush green fairways, mowed in recognizable patterns.  TV wants brilliant white sand.  Blue or blue-green water.  Fountains, waterfalls, rock walls and all of those things that present well to the camera's eye.
TV wants mile long tees with narrow chutes.
TV wants balls that hit the greens like darts.

TV wants, TV craves all that is bad about the ideal playing conditions at golf courses."

Patrick, TV merely televises what the conditions are for that course for that week.  Granted, the announcers will talk about the conditioning, but ANGC, The USGA, The PGA TOUR/LPGA, The R&A and the PGA generally produce a course and a set of conditions that are ideal for their set-up and specifications.  If the course is involved at all in creating the conditions, they want to give the "Best" possible impression to gain prestiege and/or sell memberships.  

Granted, there have been cases where extreme set-ups have gone too far, but find me one TV Network or Producer who dictated the conditions that you have described above.  It is not in the contracts with the rightsholders that the course needs to look like ANGC, or the networks will pay less.  There is no bonus pool for the # of waterfalls or blossoming trees.

I applaud you and TEPaul's efforts to educate the masses, but generally blaming the Networks and TV is wrong.


"So, do you form your committee and forbid members to watch TV, or do you form your committee with just a few people, who are knowledgeable about the game and playing conditions ?  The answer is the latter, but, you can't do that because PC dictates that you have many members from many factions on your committee."

Agreed that the PC factor is a challenge, but the opportunity to educate is there.  I spoke with a 65+ year old member last weekend who mentioned that the fairways weren't looking too green.  After mentioning the Mother Nature challenges that we have had in the Northeast lately, I asked him how did he like his trip to Scotland last year.  I then went on to add that he would be getting more distance off of the tee if we didn't have to water so much.  Tighter turf would also enable him to get his fairway woods higher into the air.  You could see the gears mesh in his brain!


"And, even if you succeed at the committee level, you have to have a President and a Board that supports that committee.
But, whom is the Board comprised of ?

So, you see, there is no easy answer.

My way of thinking is that certain "elite GOLF clubs" have to be the leaders in this area, and that the golf magazines have to support your maintainance meld and firm & fast, brownish-yellowish-green playing conditions, and that you have to constantly remind your committee, board and members that what they see on TV is not good for their golf course."

I agree.  But who's going to get ANGC to change to firm and fast, especially after spending all of that money to lengthen the course?


"TV has more influence over the fads that golf courses subject themselves to than almost any other factor.  It's the biggest impediment to achieving the ideal maintainance meld."

No, Patrick, the powers that be have the influence.  TV points the cameras.  Maybe we could work on educating the announcers...

"End of rant"  

Nice chatting with you!

JWK

P.S. Could you kindly give me a lesson on how to respond to your missives in green, make that yellow brown!  ;>)



Patrick_Mucci

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #22 on: August 31, 2005, 12:21:58 PM »
JWK,

Prior to big events most clubs lose control of their courses contractually, hence, it's the USGA or PGA that's responsible for what's seen on camera.

For color printing just insert a bracket [ followed by the words "color=, then insert the name of the color, such as green or blue, and then insert a closed bracket ]

In order to end color print, insert a bracket [ followed by a backslash / followed by the word "color" followed by a closed bracket ]

It's that easy.

Kenny Lee Puckett

Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #23 on: August 31, 2005, 02:49:09 PM »
JWK,

Prior to big events most clubs lose control of their courses contractually, hence, it's the USGA or PGA that's responsible for what's seen on camera.

Pat -

I am glad that we can agree:

From my prior post:

Patrick, TV merely televises what the conditions are for that course for that week.  Granted, the announcers will talk about the conditioning, but ANGC, The USGA, The PGA TOUR/LPGA, The R&A and the PGA generally produce a course and a set of conditions that are ideal for their set-up and specifications.  If the course is involved at all in creating the conditions, they want to give the "Best" possible impression to gain prestiege and/or sell memberships.

Thanks for your help on the below.

For color printing just insert a bracket [ followed by the words "color=, then insert the name of the color, such as green or blue, and then insert a closed bracket ]

In order to end color print, insert a bracket [ followed by a backslash / followed by the word "color" followed by a closed bracket ]

It's that easy.

JWK

Jerry Kluger

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:A superintendent's maintenance revolution!?
« Reply #24 on: August 31, 2005, 03:03:54 PM »
TEP: Here's the question: How do you convince a greens committee that firm, fast and brown is better than lush and green when it can cost more to maintain firm, fast and brown? My only answer it to find a course with the conditions you are suggesting and get the greens committee to visit there and play the course.  They are not about to go along with your suggestion unless they can see for themselves why this change is in the best interests of the club.

Pat: 40 years on greens committees, heck, I thought you were a grouchy 38 year old.

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