[Matt_Ward]

I will be visiting the famed Scottish Highlands for the first time sometime in September and wanted to find out from those who REALLY know the answers to the following ...

1). What courses are must plays not counting Dornoch, Cruden Bay and Nairn?

2). How far by car is Cruden Bay from Dornoch -- time wise and approximate mileage would be appreciated.

3). What secondary courses are a must -- no more than three and in order of preference.

Many thanks for the help and info ...

P.S. How long is the train ride from the immediate London area to the Highlands area in and around Inverness?

[THuckaby2]

I'd give you some answers, but I'm not sure I REALLY know.

Guess you're gonna have to wait for Goodale.

 

[Mike Hendren]

Matt,

Please elaborate:  What are the qualities of REALLY knowing?

BTW, I don't.

Mike

[THuckaby2]

Mike, less than great minds surely do think alike.  I have never been prouder.

 

[Matt_Ward]

When I say REALLY know it's because too many people -- even on GCA -- do not really know but try to be Good Samaritans and throw forward answers -- not really information that's helpful.

I don't care what courses people liked but if I can get some detailed descriptoins beyond what's been written in many of the golf publications it's always helpful.

I am eagerly looking forward to playing Dornoch -- it's always been on my must play list.

Like I said -- if people can answer any of the questions I originally posted I would be most appreciative.

Thanks ...

[THuckaby2]

Ok Matt.

It would have been easier to just send Goodale an email.  No one else here meets your standards.  Hell even he might not but he comes the closest.  I'd suggest David Tepper, who damn near lives there, but nope, he likely won't give you the detail you require.

I'd also suggest buying a book, but I doubt any of those meet the standards either.

Good luck!

 

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

I respect your thoughts and a good number of people here on this site. Feel free to offer your opinions -- trust me -- I don't bite. Well, I won't bite thaaaaaat hard.

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

For starters, I would suggest contacting Fraser Cromarty, Manager of Golf Highland (www.golfhighland.com). His phone in Dornoch is 01847-889373.

I would also suggest reviewing the article ("To the Highlands!") written by Ty Wenger this past spring (the March/April issue, I think) in Travel & Leisure Golf magazine.  

To answer your questions:

1) In my opinion, the additional must plays are Brora, Royal Aberdeen, Moray Old (aka Lossiemouth) and Boat of Garten (although I have not played the last two).
2) Cruden Bay to Dornoch is roughly a 3-hour drive and is probably about 150-miles as the crow flies.
3) My personal favorites among the secondary courses are Golspie, Fortrose & Rosemarkie and Tain.

FYI - I have been to Dornoch 6 times in the past 4 years and now have a vacation home there. I will be there Sept. 17-26.
Feel free to IM me if you have any more questions.

DT

[THuckaby2]

David:

Sorry man, you don't REALLY know.  You don't actually live there.  And that was FAR from the level of detail Matt requires.  But good calls re all of that.  Long live Fortrose & Rosemarkie!

 

As for me, hell I've only been there twice and made exactly the drives Matt contemplates each time.  I'm not even close.

 

[Keith Phillips]

not a part of Scotland I know well, but another helpful website is www.golfnook.com

[David_Tepper]

Matt -

I have extra copies of the current 80-page brochure published by  GolfHighland. It has profiles and info on all the courses up that way.

I would be happy to send it to you in the mail if you give me your address.

DT

Tom H. - Who among us REALLY knows anything? DT  

[THuckaby2]

David:  EXACTLY.

That's why it's a tough world for our friend Matt.

 

[A.G._Crockett]

I've been to Scotland, and played golf there, but I am absolutely positive that I don't REALLY know, either.

[Kelly Blake Moran]

Matt,

I think you would do yourself a big favor to get Rich Goodale's book on Dornoch.  It is brief in its descriptions but packed with strategic information, and the graphic presentation is the most creative and informative display I have ever seen in a book.  

Also, I would try not to see too many courses, if I were you I would spend more time at Dornoch.

[ForkaB]

I don't REALLY know anything either, but I'll stick out my neck to say:

1.  None (in fact, the only "must" is Dornoch).
2.  See MapQuest.com
3.  None (see 1. above)

PS-See Railtrack.co.uk

[Doug Wright]

Matt,

Fuhgeddabouddit pardner. ALL of the courses in the Highlands sans Dornoch will be FAR too short and quirky for the likes of you.

Matt--I'm headed to that area the first week in October but you don't want to see our itinerary--too full of quirky and fun courses for your taste...   Matt--Pleeeeeeeze don't create any international incidents while you're there in September so we can proceed without having to explain that we're not "ugly Americans."  

Cheers,

[Matt_Ward]

Kelly:

Rich was kind enough to forward the book to me and a review of it is pending.

Guys:

Appreciate the info presented thus far.

One last question -- is Cruden Bay worth the 150 mile drive? Please if you answer that question -- a bit more than just "yes" or "no" would be appreciated.

P.S. Rich G -- enjoyed the book -- only quick comment -- I wish there were color shots taken of the course to add to the superlative narrative / commentary find inside.

[THuckaby2]

Getting over the fact that I sure as hell also don't REALLY know...

"Is Cruden Bay worth the 150 mile drive?"

Well now that is a very loaded question.

First, why is it a 150 mile drive?  It doesn't have to be that way.  A very viable way to do this is to drive from Edinburgh up to Dornoch - then Cruden Bay is right on the way.  I know you then have the drive BACK, but that can be done along Loch Ness and a more beautiful highway does not exist.  One can also fly into Edinburgh and out of Inverness.  

It all depends on how much time you have over there.

As for the course itself, it's been discussed many times in here.  My feeling is that well, I don't want to stereotype you my friend, but let's just say that I don't think it will be worth going out of the way for FOR YOU.  You seem to so into "shot requirements" that the blindness, dell greens, weird humps and other quirkiness that cause well-hit shots to not necessarily yield the result expected will cause you to run screaming to the airport.

But like I say, I don't want to generalize.  

I just don't expect Scotland to thrill you much in general.  And Cruden Bay is among the quirkiest courses not called Prestwick that you'll find over there.

Are you SURE you want to make this trip, Matt?

[Sean Leary]

Huck,

I wouldn't exactly call Cruden Bay "on the way".  That is one way to get there, but it sure isn't the most direct from Edinburgh.  I tried to fit Cruden Bay in last year on a similar trip, but it was too far out of the way based on our schedule...

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

My good west coast friend -- how E-Z is it for you to use stereotypes.

When I visited Wales I posted my deep fondness for Pennard and no less than half a dozen people likely had a heart attack because I defied the predictable "pattern" that others take of my pragmatic assessment of courses.

I have no issue with luck / quirk being part of any design. However, if the luck / quirk is the dominant aspect then you don't have golf you have another game that I am not capable in defining.

P.S. To see and play the Championship 18 at Dornioch is certainly worth my time.

Huck -- of all the courses you have played where would you rate Dornoch. Please no dodge ball or tap dance answers -- dive into the pool head first and answer it honestly -- thanks !!!

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Your words here would indicate that Pennard would make your head explode.  But if you liked that, then OK, Scotland should leave you with head intact.

 

Where do I put Dornoch?  In my top 10 favorite courses on this planet.  Exactly where it falls inm that 10 depends on how I feel.  The top three are Sand Hills-Cypress-NGLA - after that it gets murky.  But Shinnecock is on there, as is The Old Course... Balllybunion... Royal County Down... I'd say Pine Valley but that's based on knowledge other than playing it... You get the drift.  Dornoch's right there.  I'd have no problem at all calling it #4.

Look at it this way:  I'd call Shinnecock and Dornoch too close to call.  Now if you trust my opinion - which you may not, we do tend to look at these things differently - well then that ought to get you on the plane right now.  I know how you feel about Shinnecock.

TH

[Andy Hughes]

One last question -- is Cruden Bay worth the 150 mile drive?

Matt, bearing in mind that I learned to play in the Poconos and that I just played and thought highly of two Myrtle Beach courses, I absolutely adored Cruden Bay.  It was exhilirating and challenging and unfair and surprising. I would have found it thrilling just to walk around there with no clubs or balls.
But whether it is 'worth' it is hard for anyone else to say. It would be worth it for me.

[Matt_Ward]

Huck:

Appreciate the info -- just a quick question -- given what you had read about Dornoch prior to your round there what were the elements of the course that surprised you and what elements ratified what you had read?

Is the course in your mind completely bulletproof in all senses of how you define / evaluate a course.

One last question -- the key strength of Dornoch is ...

Thanks ...

Andy:

I have heard a good deal about Cruden Bay and I do enjoy -- maybe not as zealously as some here on GCA -- the odd bounce of the ball. It's only when the "odd" bounce becomes the norm for every shot or most of one's shots that it becomes a bit of an issue for me.

Unfortunately, stereotypes are much easier to apply than to see the nature of the person being defined in such a quick and haphazard manner.

P.S. Besides Andy -- you and I need something else to discuss beyond the merits of Poconos golf !!!

[THuckaby2]

Matt:

Well, I first played Dornoch as a 25 year old know-nothing.  Check that, I'm still a know-nothing.  Call me a 25 year old knew-less-than-now.

 

So nothing surprised me nor was anything ratified.  I heard it was great - that's why I travelled all the way the hell up there - and that part was ratified.  But beyond that, I have no specifics for you.

When I went back 12 years later, knowing more... well... what surprised me were how freakin' cool the greens are and how damn tough the up and downs are when you miss them.  I also appreciated the stark beauty way way more.  Heck, Rich explains it all in the book - just take his words as gospel.  I do.  About this course anyway.

So OK, the key strength of Dornoch is:

It's a championship course that looks and feels and acts like a members' course.  It's a historic, important club that has no airs.

I wouldn't say that about Shinnecock.  Too stuffy, too tough for one and all, too steeped in USGA lore.  I can't see ever feeling comfortable there. I can't think of many of the great US courses I WOULD say that about.

I felt at home at Dornoch the second I saw the town... I REALLY felt at home standing on the first tee.  Playing the course, I felt I had a chance to score well, and in fact did have one fine round.  But I also saw how they could hold an Open there tomorrow, just based on the course anyway.  That's a very rare combo.  Again relative to it's cousin in greatness Shinnecock, I really feel I could play that course 100 times and never record a decent score.

That might not be what you're after because it goes far beyond the golf course itself.  But if one goes to Scotland just for golf courses, one misses the point.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Sean:  you bring up another age-old question (for this group anway) - if one is going to the Highlands and has 7 days, how many should be spent at Dornoch and how many playing other courses?  I gather you'd say all 7 should be at Dornoch - but would you say that if you hadn't already played all the others you mention?

Put yourself in the place of a visitor who might have one and only one chance to get to the area.  Yes Dornoch is bulletproof (as much as I despise that term).  But wouldn't you come home wondering what's to be found at the other courses you've heard of, and hear others discussing?

This comes down to a personal preference and of course there is no right or wrong in it - it's really a basic fundamental difference in how one treats visiting golf courses.  Just do understand that there is another point of view... I played a bunch of courses up and down that coast and I'm surely not sitting here wishing I had played Dornoch more instead.  Oh, I sure as hell want to play Dornoch more - I just wouldn't trade the days spent at Tain, Cruden Bay, Fortrose etc. for more rounds there right now.  I'm glad I played those courses.

That being said, if playing "bulletproof" courses is all one cares about, then you're right, stay at Dornoch as it is the only one.

TH

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