[George Pazin]

This is my initial response, before reading everyone else's.

Strategic features matter to everyone. What people typically miss, when thinking about this, is that not all features matter to everyone.

That carry bunker out at 250, 270 to carry, is generally out of play for me, unless I hit my best possible drive and it's in that direction. But that meaningless top shot bunker might come into play for me, occasionally (sadly). Or that little hump 230 yards out in the right rough. Or even that little irrigation pond 50 yards left of the fairway.

The point I am trying to make is that there are plenty of features in play for all golfers as long as the architect or builder doesn't bulldoze them all away, or forget to put them in if it is entirely created. All too often on here, people judge hazards as the pros play them, or as they would play them if they hit their best possible shot.

You know what? When even a hacker like me hits his best possible shot, no features are in play (that's pretty much the definition of the best possible shot, isn't it?). If you drill it down the middle and there's no central bunker, it doesn't matter if you hit it 150 or 300. If there are bunkers down the left side of the hole and you only hit it right, then those features are generally out of play for you.

One of the most intriguing aspects of the game to me was that, as I improved, my home course played differently. I found different hazards, whether explicit or not.

Those bunkers that you thought were meaningless because they were 220 out are in play for a lot of people. Just like that bunker you drove into 280 out is meaningless for a lot of other people.

I've thrown a lot of semi-connected thoughts out there, but I'll conclude with this:

There is one thing that I can pretty much guarantee - if you take this attitude - i.e. certain features are wasted on certain golfers - then you are probably going to get a boring hole as a result.

Now to read everyone else's thoughts....

[THuckaby2]

Well sure, George.  Different hazards matter to different golfers.  We covered that at great length at least once also.

But this does not mean that a large percentage of golfers care about or utilize strategic choices.  That bunker at 150 that's in play for the lesser golfer is still largely ignored as he tries to rip the 200 yard drive he had once in his life.

Or at the very least, it's a VERY rare golfer indeed who plays for an angle to avoid that bunker by the green when he's 100 yards out, knowing that he'll achieve a better score if he does so, because getting in a bunker at all is death for him.  Nope, most golfers tend to remember and play for the good shots, not the bad ones.

And that's why they don't score the absolute lowest they could.

BUT, no one can deny they are having the most fun they could, also.

TH

[George Pazin]

Some good thoughts, some funny posts, and, of course, Huck telling me he's already covered what I posted and I'm full of s@#$.

Huck, I disagree, I think many golfers think more than you realize, they just don't verbalize it. We all - check that - most of us know our games well enough to make decisions quietly and quickly. Just because we don't stand and ponder our options doesn't mean we don't think about our choices.

Same is true for you, Craig. I think if you could read people's minds, you'd see they think about options more often than you think, especially if it's not a boring course or an obvious course that required no thought.

And I also saw that Geoff said something that was in my thoughts, just a lot more succinctly, plus he added the "I didn't travel to layup" sentiment. Good points, I think it explains why many come to love their home course.

[Mike_Golden]

Well sure, George.  Different hazards matter to different golfers.  We covered that at great length at least once also.

But this does not mean that a large percentage of golfers care about or utilize strategic choices.  That bunker at 150 that's in play for the lesser golfer is still largely ignored as he tries to rip the 200 yard drive he had once in his life.

Or at the very least, it's a VERY rare golfer indeed who plays for an angle to avoid that bunker by the green when he's 100 yards out, knowing that he'll achieve a better score if he does so, because getting in a bunker at all is death for him.  Nope, most golfers tend to remember and play for the good shots, not the bad ones.

And that's why they don't score the absolute lowest they could.

BUT, no one can deny they are having the most fun they could, also.

TH

Huck,

I'm clearly bipolar when it comes to course management-I'm really good at avoiding trouble and keeping the ball in play, yet for the most part totally ignore architectural features and the right strategies for those holes unless absolutely smacked in the face by it.  A case in point is a short par 4 at Solutia GC, #12-it's a 330 yard dogleg right with a couple of trees on the right that can block the approach shot.  There's a bunker on the LEFT side of the fairway about 180 yards from the tee.
I've been hitting driver on the hole and leaving myself a 70 yard approach shot from the right center of the fairway to a small,  push up green.  Not a particularly easy shot to execute and I've been both short and long with these since I started playing there.  Last Saturday I decided to hit 3 wood to leave a full shot to the green, pulled it, and wound up to the left of the fairway bunker, about 125 yards from the green.  Except now, being left, I had a shot to a level green that was sitting right there.  I hit 9 iron to 3' and made birdie.  So the strategy has always been there, I just completely missed it until I made that mistake.   Guys like Naccarato and a bunch of others on GCA would just see that and automatically pick the line of charm

[THuckaby2]

George:

Verbalize?  Hell actions speak way louder than words on a golf course.  If words mattered I'd be Tiger Woods.  

My experience in 30+ years of playing this game is as I state here.  And it doesn't come from discussing shots but rather from witnessing them.  And I'm not talking results but rather aiming points and club choices.

In any case, I'd never say you were full of shit. Well maybe I would.  Just not on this matter.  

One additional thought:  I find also that the "I didn't come 3000 miles to lay up" form of strategy also applies to "I didn't:

 - take the time off of work
 - pay $100
 - leave the wife and kids
 - put up with your inane crap of these yahoos for four hours
 - wear these stupid clothes
 - buy all this expensive equipment"

Thus many act this way at their home courses as well.  Many also don't HAVE true home courses, which makes it easier to act this way.

That's the real world of golf.  Public golf, anyway.

TH

[THuckaby2]

Mike:

So you play how 98% of the world plays in terms of shot choice - there's absolutely no shame in that - I'm right with you brother.  Hell outside of competitive play I damn near always just rip driver also, knowing full well that my chances of getting close are way better from 100 than from 40.  But where's the fun in hitting a layup 2iron to 100 yards?  BORING....  Even in competitive play the temptation to rip driver is powerful...

That's the point, well-articulated by you.

One more thing though:  I'm not sure it's any great insight to see these things, nor any huge ability to pick up the line of charm.  If we stood on that tee at Solutia together and tried to ID the best way to play the hole, with the best chance at making birdie, we'd identify it in less than 30 seconds.  The fact we don't choose to even look is what I'm getting at here... It's not as much fun... as much as it might be for Tommy and others here.  But they're exceedingly weird.

 

TH

[Mike_Golden]

One more thing though:  I'm not sure it's any great insight to see these things, nor any huge ability to pick up the line of charm.  If we stood on that tee at Solutia together and tried to ID the best way to play the hole, with the best chance at making birdie, we'd identify it in less than 30 seconds.  The fact we don't choose to even look is what I'm getting at here... It's not as much fun... as much as it might be for Tommy and others here.  But they're exceedingly weird.

 

TH

Huck,

I agree, we choose not to look...  Sort of the same way I pick stocks sometimes  

So we're the normal ones?  Boy,  that makes the rest of them really, really strange

[Craig Sweet]

I'm sorry george, but I don't think very many people consider strategy while playing.  Like I said, way back many posts ago, they hit it and walk, and they might stop to think only when confronted with a hazzard/strategic design feature near the green. Until then they know how to get from Point A to Point B to Point C and eventually the green...hit and walk...hit and walk...hit and walk.

[THuckaby2]

Mike - just understand "normal" here just means the routine way most golfers play.  Obviously that is FAR from normal relative to off-course behaviors.

Craig - of course I'm with you.  But it's more like hit and drive....  

[cary lichtenstein]

99% are more oblivious than you think

[George Pazin]

I've never really been a fan of condescension.

[A_Clay_Man]

Since most of the modern anti-strategy crap out there, is so commercially accepted, many don't get the opportunity to think anything other than "straight down the middle". Maybe thats why so many here have witnessed what they have witnessed?

But, I have seen my fair share and I am more likely to get up and just hit, while others are still calculating or strategizing. So, who's most?

[David Druzisky]

98% may be a bit strong but I too think it is udervalued by most of todays golfers.  Unfortunately as the golf audience has expanded the masses have been exposed to the game in a shallow way in many cases.  When they tune in to the TV they do not hear anything about strategy or actual course management on most of the telecasts.  The US Open has little to do with strategy and seems to be about survival and who will make the least number of mistakes.  Even The Open (aka British Open)  telecast didnt show the optional routes of play as much as they used to.  People just aren't exposed to that level and spirit of the game.

[Jeff Fortson]

In the immortal paraphrased words of Colonel Jessup:

You want the truth?

You want the truth?  

YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!

Son, we live in a world that has par, and that par has to be guarded by rough that's cut high. Who's gonna do it?  You?  You, Mr. Tied-for-3rd-in-the-C-Flight-Last-Year? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom.

You weep for the golden age, and you curse Tom Fazio. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know - that Alister McKenzie's death, while tragic, probably saved golf; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves the game.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at the 19th hole, you want me growing that rough -- you need me growing that rough. We use words like "penal," "hazard", "stimpmeter".....

We use these words as the backbone of a life spent defending par. ...  You use them as a punch line!

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very slope rating that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a wedge and hack it back in the fairway. Either way, I don't give a damn what you think you are entitled to!

This is a classic post.  One for the Hall of Fame.


Jeff F.

[Mike_Young]

Patrick:

Again, well said.  I fully agree that 98% of all golfers do try to achieve the lowest score.  The other 2% tend to be participants here.  

Tom,
I think your above shoud be changed to 99.9 and  0.1.
IMHO Most golfers don't comprehend strategy except for length.
And I honestly think many of them enjoy the game more because of it.  They just don't complicate it.  Wish I could be more that way.

[rgkeller]

Strategic features are relevant to anyone who plays the course - although most are unaware of the relevance.

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