The best non prototypical Raynor hole at the Creek?

[Patrick_Mucci]

Tom MacWood,

It's even a better spot to play golf on, especially when the wind is up.

It's a setting from a bygone era.

[TEPaul]

It would seem to be totally illogical to think that Macdonald would not have been the architect of the Creek Club. This was a club where Macdonald was part of the group that started the club and I believe he was the original president or something comparable. But then again, how much designing did Raynor do when he did a project with Macdonald at any time? How about Piping Rock in 1913? How about the Links in 1919, for instance? How about The Creek in 1923-25? Did Raynor act as the engineer in every project Macdonald was involved in design in or was he sometimes that and sometimes a co-designer?

GeorgeB, obviously Raynor was the engineer at Creek and the man who created the plans. Otherwise why would he have done that highly unusual long narrow blueprint of the golf course that we had in our Flynn box, an excellent copy of which is now hanging on the wall on the way to the locker-room? Although it's not signed or initialed that most certainly is Raynor----right? It certainly is identical to what I assume to be his style.

However, what I'm very interested in are the golf courses that may assume they were designed in some way by Macdonald but were, in fact, pretty much all Seth Raynor.

I've been telling GeorgeB for a long time that I think more research and a more accurate study should be given to Macdonald's over-all frame of mind from about 1920 on. From little tid-bits here and there (like a few mentions about him in those agronomy letters) it appears C.B. may've been particularly difficult from then on and perhaps had become quite unapproachable. And don't forget, I doubt Macdonald ever took any money for anything he did in golf architecture. At least that's what he said in his book that was published in 1928. Does anyone think Macdonald had anything directly to do with another project after say 1926? Did he write that book because he knew he never wanted to do more in golf course architecture----eg that he knew he was done? Had Macdonald become a bitter man---a depressed man?

Why, for instance, did C.B. Macdonald never become the President of the USGA? It appeared there was a no more logical choice at one time than him? Was he far more of a cantankerous SOB than even we sometimes suspect?

My favorie non prototypical hole at Creek is #15. That's a hole I could play and keep going back to the tee and play over and over again. Even with a wedge in your hand the approach to that green is the most interesting of the non-prototypes on the course to me---particularly distance-wise.

[Tom_Doak]

Patrick:

Regarding the 17th green at The Creek, and the greens there in general:

When we did the renovation work on the greens in 1993, they were not totally rebuilt, except for the 18th which was not an original green at that time and which we rebuilt to my "Macdonald-like" design.  [We had no good photos or drawings to guide us on a true restoration.]  

On all the rest of the greens, sand was added and Rotera-ed into the existing mix, refloated and seeded.  Because of this procedure, the agronomists were uncomfortable with the idea of changing the 1993 contours, and without any documentation of those contours, the club was uninterested in giving us carte blanche to try and guess the old contours and restore them, as Yeamans Hall did [because the greens had been changed more dramatically there].

I am sure that many of the greens at The Creek had been changed or softened from their original contours prior to 1993.  One old-timer told me that the superintendent in the 1940's used to modify his "problem" greens in the summers by stripping off the sod with horse-drawn sod cutters, adding soil to the profile, and then resodding!  I doubt he surveyed the greens on two-foot centers before and after he did that.

I would have loved to re-do the 17th green and some of the others, but we didn't have the will of the membership behind that.  (It was hard enough to get them to restore the things we did restore, and to go ahead with rebuilding the greens, even though most of them were darn near dead!)

PS  I do think the 15th at The Creek is a "prototype" Macdonald hole ... the same green as #6 at Chicago or #11 at National, only in a grander setting.

[TEPaul]

"I am sure that many of the greens at The Creek had been changed or softened from their original contours prior to 1993.  One old-timer told me that the superintendent in the 1940's used to modify his "problem" greens in the summers by stripping off the sod with horse-drawn sod cutters, adding soil to the profile, and then resodding!  I doubt he surveyed the greens on two-foot centers before and after he did that.

I would have loved to re-do the 17th green and some of the others, but we didn't have the will of the membership behind that.  (It was hard enough to get them to restore the things we did restore, and to go ahead with rebuilding the greens, even though most of them were darn near dead!)."

TomD:

What do you suppose was menat by 'problem greens'? Problems with drainage? Problems with growing grass? Problems with playability? And why did you say the greens were darn near dead in 1993? What was the problem with their health then?

I realize Joe Dey did a lot of things to the bunkering on that course but do you believe it was basically Dey or his influence there that made other architectural changes to the original design of that course, and if so why? (I do realize the issue of Joe Dey and what he may've done to that course can be a touchy subject).

I do know about the so-called problems on the course early-on with the so-called "water holes".

[Doug Braunsdorf]

GeorgeB, obviously Raynor was the engineer at Creek and the man who created the plans. Otherwise why would he have done that highly unusual long narrow blueprint of the golf course that we had in our Flynn box, an excellent copy of which is now hanging on the wall on the way to the locker-room? Although it's not signed or initialed that most certainly is Raynor----right? It certainly is identical to what I assume to be his style.

Tom-

  Is this the blueprint that reads "Locust Valley Golf Course" in the heading area?  
  Wayne F. and I wondered about that--why it reads "Locust Valley Golf Course" and not "The Creek Club".   Do you or Wayne M. or anyone know why this is?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

Although The Creek's membership was comprised of rather substantial individuals I get the impression that during Dey's influence, and perhaps pre and post Dey, the club was extremely frugal, and that might have manifested itself in the maintainance budget and the inability of the superintendent to provide adequate conditions.

I would be most interested to see if George Holland's efforts will produce photos and other documentation that can shed light on any and all changes to the course subsequent to opening day.

Even with the changes it remains one of the most enjoyable golf courses one can play.

However, if George Holland's efforts reveal more dramatic features relating to greens, bunkers and other features, it would seem the absolute ideal golf course to restore.

In the interim, systemic tree removal would produce positive results immediately.

In viewing an early photo that GH provided, the 9th, 10th, 11th, 12th, 13th and the lower part of the 14th hole appear to be on sand, without reeds and wetlands.

I doubt the environmental agencies would permit a restoration in that zone.

[T_MacWood]

Pat
You are correct there are number of bunkers missing from the Creek. Almost every hole has lost bunkers, the most glaring being the large expanses of sand defining the holes you mentioned...the fairways and greens appeared to be islands on the man-made beach. The 17th green was also surrounded by a ring of sand.

By the way the old aerial reveals there were always trees behind the 5th green.

I suspect Joe Dey was a proponent of Tilly's later bunker formula.

[Tom_Doak]

Tom P:  I believe I have reported here before, that Bill Jones told me Mr. Dey's eventual master plan for The Creek was to eliminate all but FOUR bunkers!  Mr. Dey told Bill he was a big fan of Augusta National and it didn't have many.

The "problem" greens which were modified in the 1930's were due to agronomic issues I think ... growing grass.  The greens mix was a very dark soil which drained at 1 to 2 inches per hour.  By 1993 they were all Poa and declining rapidly on a limited budget.

Patrick:  The lower holes (9, 12, 13, and 14) were all built up with three feet of soil many years ago to keep them from flooding so regularly.  In that process the sandy nature of the surrounds was disturbed, and any fairway contouring was wiped out.  It would be hard to restore since there is no clear map of what was there, and you'd have to restore it at the higher elevation unless you want it to go underwater.