The best non prototypical Raynor hole at the Creek?

[NAF]

Curious to see what people think other than the Long/Redan/Short/Biarritz/Eden hole is the best hole at the Creek . Most people would obviously pick #6 which is all world so perhaps we should exclude that one as well.

My caddy said Ben Crenshaw told him that #12 or Squirrel's Run was his favorite hole on the course because of the way it fit the land in perfectly at that spot in the routing.  And that maybe the Creek's best asset, its routing because in my opinion the proto-typical Raynor holes are the weakest of any of his courses I've played.

I happened to really like the 15th hole with its fairway option to get a flat lie on the right and the gully like landform before the green which like a knoll hole knocks off poorly hit approaches..

I think I remember Tom Doak being a big fan of the 16th hole or "Oak"

[DTaylor18]

Noel, i too liked #15.  I'm not sure i would characacterize it as my favorite hoe, but I really enjoyed the first hole, especially the green.  It's not very picturesque compared to others out there, but it's a great start to the round on a fun course.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Noel

#15 is the double plateau so it does not count.  

I think 13 and 14 are great natural holes that fit the land perfectly and they are tough too.

This routing shows how to use elevation changes to advantage allowing a very walkable course.

[NAF]

Damn you Dr. Childs..

So then my favorite would be #12 like Crenshaw.. I do think the 1st is underrated as well.. and much better approached if you hit a block like I did to play the redan like kick in on that green.

[bstark]

  15 needs to have the ugly oak tree on the right removed. You would think with all the  disease/green issues they would start an aggressive tree removal especially in and around 8 green, 9 tee etc.  
  Creek is a fun place to play, especially with the fun loving GCA crowd.....

[SPDB]

15 is a Hog's Back, or as I think it reads on the card "Hunchback" - not a double plateau.

Excluding 6, I think that 16 ("Valley") is the best non-proto hole. The drive into the valley and then back up to the hole is a great thrill.

13, I believe, has been redesigned since Raynor.

[wsmorrison]

Is 6 a prototypical Raynor?  Not that I'm aware of.  It is a mighty great hole.

I like the 14th hole quite a bit.  The narrow tee next to the water, the angle of the tee shot a little uncertain and then the uphill approach to that really sloped green.  

The last time I played it I carried my tee shot from the back tee over the creek about 45 yards.  I may well have hit the bridge on the right (300 + carry) and bounced over.  Pretty long regardless.

I like the width and skykine effect of the fifth hole.  Walking off that green to the sixth tee is one of the most exhilarating walks in golf.

What was the group's experience with fairway bunkers? Tom and I have played in a member-guest there the last two years and out of the eight golfers, I cannot recall anyone landing in a fairway bunker.  Are they out of play anymore?  We were 1-10 handicappers.  Some were short, others average and one or two longer than most.  It seems like a good sampling of golfing types although only 2 rounds.  

I would like to see a tee moved back on the third hole to the other side of the road according to Flynn's plan.  425 yards versus today's 382.  That would bring the hazards more into play.  The bunkering and green appears to be a Flynn change.  The back tee was never built.

If par were changed to 69 with 18 a par 4, what do you think the perception would be?  I doubt this would ever happen, but why not?  The handicaps would probably travel better to other clubs.

[NAF]

Is the 1st at the Creek a two shot redan?.. The green is certainly predisposed that way..

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

The fairway is a Hog's Back, the green is a double Plateau.

NAF

# 13 and # 14 are pretty impressive golf holes and # 16 is too.

Isn't # 6 a Punchbowl ?  = Disqualification.

[Bill_McBride]

#6 was an incredible punchbowl green with that smallish size and severe contours.  It's too bad the greens were running slow as it would be fun to see balls moving on that surface.

I liked #13 and #1 best after #6, which I guess Pat is correct about its disqualification.  #1 because of the green site, great Redan contour.

[SPDB]

I like the width and skykine effect of the fifth hole.  Walking off that green to the sixth tee is one of the most exhilarating walks in golf.

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne!

The 5th is not a skyline green. There are mature trees behind it, which prevent it from having a skyline effect - that is, unless you are playing from the tennis courts. Did Pat Mucci pay you to write that? He still owes me for a wager we made on the skyline nature of that green (and the lack of sprinkler head yardages at Merion).

Pat -

I would dispute that the 15th green is a double plateau. It does not have discrete sections like other double plateaus, but is rather boldly contoured in several different directions - to the left, rear and front. Just my opinion, though. It is most assuredly, however, a hogs back, which is confirmed by the hole's name.  

[wsmorrison]

If Pat told me something, do you think I'd willingly remember it  

The mature trees you're talking about are pretty far away and start on the downslope towards 6.  I'm pretty certain there is a real skyline effect there.  Granted there are trees along the left and right, but I don't think the ones beyond the green are so obvious.  I may have to make a small wager on that.  Pat thought there are yardages on Merion's sprinklers?  Bad boy, Pat.  Go to your room without supper!

What about a par 69?  Stupid or what? What about a new back tee on 3?

I'm off to Tom Paul's farm for a drink with he and Mark Rowlinson.  Adios for now.

[Patrick_Mucci]

I like the width and skykine effect of the fifth hole.  Walking off that green to the sixth tee is one of the most exhilarating walks in golf.

Wayne, Wayne, Wayne!

The 5th is not a skyline green. There are mature trees behind it, which prevent it from having a skyline effect - that is, unless you are playing from the tennis courts. Did Pat Mucci pay you to write that? He still owes me for a wager we made on the skyline nature of that green (and the lack of sprinkler head yardages at Merion).

I conceded the Merion bet.
However, the 5th at The Creek was clearly designed as a skyline green.  80 years of unrestricted growth and encroachment by trees to the left rear of the green alter it's appearance from the right side.[/color]

Pat -

I would dispute that the 15th green is a double plateau. It does not have discrete sections like other double plateaus, but is rather boldly contoured in several different directions - to the left, rear and front. Just my opinion, though. It is most assuredly, however, a hogs back, which is confirmed by the hole's name.  

It's clearly a double plateau green and is reflected as such in early drawings.

The name references the fairway, just like the 5th at NGLA.[/color]

[Geoffrey Childs]

Sean

The 15th green certainly has the structure of a double plateau.  Raynor combined prototype concepts on many occasions with perhaps the best being the 4th at Fishers Island which is classic alps and punchbowl.  15 at The creek is a double plateau at least until George Bahto tells me otherwise   .

[TEPaul]

If I'm not mistaken Doak/Hanse reclaimed greenspace on #15 left bigtime.

If the truth were told about the architectural evolution of the Creek Club course unfortunately it would become clear that Joe Dey was perhaps one of the most destructive to the architecture of the golf course most particularly the bunkering. Apparently he was so frugal he didn't see the purpose of maintaining much of the sand areas of bunkering. I guess the record also shows that Dey, in his capacity with the USGA was also perhaps the strongest advocate of the concept and principle of narrow fairways.

[Patrick_Mucci]

TEPaul,

How aware of the removal are the current members of The Creek and is there any interest in restoring the removed bunkers ?

In looking at an old aerial supplied by our mutual friend, it's apparent that an aggressive tree removal program would greatly enhance the playability, agronomics and look of the golf course.

[Ian Andrew]

NAF,

"Is the 1st at the Creek a two shot redan?.. The green is certainly predisposed that way.."

I think so and that is my favourite hole (outside of the 6th).
That may be the most interesting approach I have seen on a par four, all dictated by a great green. The fact that the hole is short makes it full of many options from the tee.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Ian,

Don't forget that it's a blind to semi-blind tee shot.

It's a wonderful opening hole.

[SPDB]

However, the 5th at The Creek was clearly designed as a skyline green.  80 years of unrestricted growth and encroachment by trees to the left rear of the green alter it's appearance from the right side.

Pat - I would never have been so foolish as to make a bet about design intent. You cannot change the terms of our wager. Our bet was whether the 6th green is a skyline, not whether it was a skyline at one time, or that it was intended to be one. Without any affirmative evidence, iIt would be very difficult to determine whether CB/SR intended a skyline effect.  From your post, I gather that you have conceded this bet as well.

[Scott_Burroughs]

From your post, I gather that you have conceded this bet as well.

Doubt that'll ever happen.

[Patrick_Mucci]

SPDB,

The 6th green is a punchbowl,

The 5th is a skyline green.

If you view it from the right rough the trees behind and below the green block the sky.   If you view it from the left side it's clearly a skyline green.

Scott Burroughs,

For someone who's never seen it you sure have a lot to say and nothing to contribute.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

It's clearly a double plateau green and is reflected as such in early drawings.

The name references the fairway, just like the 5th at NGLA.[/b]

Pat-

  To concur with SPDB, I'm not so sure 15 is a double plateau green; from my memory (and I have played The Creek) it isn't a double plateau green of similar design to, say 16 at Essex County CC, 2 at Knoll West, to give two examples.  

  The green is, overall, square-ish in shape, unlike the double plateau designs we may be most familiar with, that being with a sort of 'L' shape.  

  My memory's pretty damn good--I recall the green being not unlike a sheet of paper that is lightly twisted.  Obviously, I agree partially with Geoff, in that I will defer to George on this matter, as he would know best.  

  I will concur with you on #16.  A great, square green that is visually striking.  

  I also liked #10, as you move from one part of the property (upper part) to the holes that are routed through the marshland, and play the next several (10-tee shot of 14) around the tidal marsh/Frost Creek.  

Five, it appears to be a skyline green.  That hole is quite memorable.  As Wayne Freeman put it, the tree at the top of the hill 'pulls' you up, visually; and then, at the crest of the hill, the view is astonishing.  

Wayne-  I agree with you re fairway bunkers.  I don't recall being in any on any of my visits (and yes, I was in the correct fairway!   ).  

Pat-

Let's call a spade a spade here.  If you can dish it out as much as you do, you best be able to take it in return.  

[George_Bahto]

I would describe 6-green as a 2-level punchbowl with a reversed Redan-style shoulder

I think the original 3rd green at Yale is about as close to Creek's 6th green as any I can remember seeing execept that at Yale the green was not cocked as much as Creek's, this only regarding the putting surface.

World Class golf hole!!

I think the 1st hole at Creek is a 2-shot Redan, yes. This is one fine golf hole s well!

I believe 5-green was meant to be a skyline green - I don't know what they would have called it in 1923

I'm still trying to (with the help of the club's material) .... trying to figure out EXACTLY what actually hit the ground from the original design intent.

We'll get it yet .... they have tons of material (thanks to Geo Holland and friends) and the new blueprint Wayne and Tom Paul came up with is a great piece although it only shows some holes in detail.

Stay tuned .... it ain't over ..... fun stuff

gb

[SPDB]

Pat - From the left side of what? From the left rough, 150 yards out, the trees still frame the rear of the hole. It is only a skyline if you are playing from the tennis courts or, perhaps from left of the left greenside bunker. You are also forgetting about the tree to the  right of the green btw it and 6 tee, which itself might also diminish the skyline effect. I wish it were skyline, and it may in fact have been designed with that in mind. Our bet, however, concerned how the hole is presently constituted.  I've only played the course 50+ times, so what do I know?

If scott were to cut and paste the hole from his AOTD, you could tell from that depiction alone that the hole is not a skyline as you insist.

[Scott_Burroughs]

From your post, I gather that you have conceded this bet as well.

Doubt that'll ever happen.

Told you so.

If scott were to cut and paste the hole from his AOTD, you could tell from that depiction alone that the hole is not a skyline as you insist.

Sean,

In the original discussion of this same issue at least a year ago, I did post the AOTD of The Creek, showing that trees are indeed behind the hole from the fairway.  Even though you know that the hole is not currently a skyline green, that does not matter to Pat, he only cares what it used to be or what it might have been intended to be, even though that's not the issue.

Scott Burroughs,

For someone who's never seen it...

Are you sure about that?