[Bob_Huntley]

96!?!?!?!?  is it that guy that got in a B Open qualifier in the 80s and shot a 110 or something like that???

Paul,

That guy was Maurice G. Flitcroft.

See:

http://www.eamonlynch.com/work8.htm


Bob

[Dan Kelly]

That guy was Maurice G. Flitcroft.

Bob --

Was Mr. Flitcroft (a name of which Dickens himself would have been proud) any relation to Eddie (The Eagle) Edwards?

Or was he merely, perhaps, Eddie's idol?

Dan

P.S. I can't Google up a single picture of Mr. Flitcroft. Dang.

[JSlonis]

Well...I just got back after spending the day watching my friend at Merion.  Austin played very solid, and if not for a stubbed chip shot on #18 would have been under par.  

A couple of observations:  Merion looked great.  There were just a few thin spots in the fairways from the Pythium Blight, nothing severe, and the greens looked like they rolled very well.  I know the scores are very high, but I honestly think the conditions were on the easy side for what we usually see at Merion.  The hardest aspect were the hole locations, they were in some difficult spots.  The rough was spotty, much thinner than usual in most areas, and a lot of the areas that normally have very heavy rough were thinner and tramped down by the galleries.  The greens were very receptive for Merion.  I saw full shots making good sized ball marks, and some shots from the rough that held the greens...this is abnormal for Merion.  Most of the time you fix a "dent" and can forget about stopping a ball from the rough.  With the favorable weather forecast of cooler and drier weather, I'm sure they'll be able to get the course firmer throughout the week.

I would imagine the USGA is thrilled with the way Merion has held up to scoring despite its softer than normal conditions.  I spoke to a few guys today that know how Merion usually is set up for the Hugh Wilson, and they had many of the same thoughts that I had.

All in all, I really think the course will shine this week.  It is a great design in every regard and will continue to be a superior test for Match Play.

[BCrosby]

Is all this gloating about the best amateurs in the world posting extremely high scores at Merion supposed to be an indication of the greatness of the course? Would it be a better course if the scores were even higher?

Or is it a sign that the USGA has gotten things terribly wrong? Again.

Bob

 

[PThomas]

thanks Bob!...and I read where I was wrong, he didn't shoot 110...he shot a 121!  

Mike C:  I just figured those young studs would never shoot in the 90's ANYWHERE!!!  the old girl is slapping some serious butt around , isn't she!!

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

I do not think anybody is gloating, just those that know the course and respect it, are glad to see that with modern technology it is still a great challenge.
I trust Jamie's views 100% as he like myself sees the course annualy for the Hugh Wilson and as such can fairly compare the set up that the USGA has laid down.
As he has stated the set up is nothing more than is usual for that event, as such Merion dose indeed display greatness even with the prodigious length that is out there...all be it with some extra tees

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

By the way Jamie,
Why dont you hire some heavies to make sure those tees are not in play next may

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob,

I'm not sure anyone's gloating.  I'm really frankly very surprised, especially given the soft weather conditions we've had here in recent weeks.  (see Jamie's first-hand account above for more definitive info about the setup).  I had expected some of these long-hitting fearless kids to go low.

Instead I watch the leaderboard and see good players taking 8's and 9s on holes and can't believe what I'm seeing.

For years the conventional wisdom has been that Merion is "too short" to host major tournaments and in a day of 300+ yard driving averages, it seemed logical enough.

Instead, like Lytham in the British Open a few years back, it seems that a course at less than 6900 yards can still confound top players.  

Perhaps there are some lessons to be learned?

[JSlonis]

Is all this gloating about the best amateurs in the world posting extremely high scores at Merion supposed to be an indication of the greatness of the course? Would it be a better course if the scores were even higher?

Or is it a sign that the USGA has gotten things terribly wrong? Again.

Bob

 

Bob,

The USGA has absolutely done nothing wrong with the setup of Merion.  If any player bitches about the conditions or setup thus far, they should take up another sport.  Merion is just simply a very difficult course, the setup that I saw today is nothing but FAIR.  

Perhaps with the rough being just a bit thinner, the players are trying some approach shots that may not be the right choice.  Instead of just hacking the ball back into play as you sometimes have to do there, they are taking just enough risk on some approach shots, and if not played perfectly, often lead to bigger problems.

[Mike_Cirba]

Bob,

I also think this is good news for the type of golf we like.  

It certainly deflates the argument that we need to be building 7,500-8,000 yard golf courses to present a challenge.

I even read the term "firm and fast" in the "Philadelphia Inquirer" today, talking about the type of conditions that tournament officials are hoping to have later this week.

What's next?  An article about "maintenance meld" on the cover of the sports section of "USA Today"?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Mike Cirba, JSlonis & MWP,

Is this a sign that the USGA and Merion are correct, that deep penal rough is a valid method for protecting par, especially when combined with lengthened holes and narrowed farirways ?

Mike Cirba,

I thought you were opposed to the concept of protecting par

[JSlonis]

Another observation of today's play.  While the golf ball is indeed traveling farther, and curving less, I sure did not see a great display of driving the golf ball.  I realize the nerves that come with playing in an event like this, but for the most part, I saw a lot of guys well out of play.

I think you are seeing the same thing from the PGA Tour each week as well.  I'm surprised to see so many players continue to drive the ball out of play.  If you saw any of this past weekends tourney from Firestone, I'm sure you'd agree...Does anyone care if they hit it in the fairway anymore?

While distance sure has it's advantages, it doesn't matter at courses like Merion.  If you can't control your tee shot to some degree, you will simply pay the price.

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Patrick
It is simply what I have been preaching for a very long time.
Make accuracy off the tee count for something, keep the fairways fast to enhance that view and then make the greens tricky but fair.

The saddest thing I have ever read regarding this game I love so much, was when Vijay came out and said that driving accuracy is not important anymore...that is/should be quite simply wrong!!!!

[JSlonis]

Mike Cirba, JSlonis & MWP,

Is this a sign that the USGA and Merion are correct, that deep penal rough is a valid method for protecting par, especially when combined with lengthened holes and narrowed farirways ?

Mike Cirba,

I thought you were opposed to the concept of protecting par

Pat,

They are right to some extent, but honestly the rough is not as severe as it usually is in many areas.  It is still quite high overall, but it is not as lush as I'm used to seeing it.

[Mike_Cirba]

Patrick,

Did you read the following onsite report from Jamie?

The rough was spotty, much thinner than usual in most areas, and a lot of the areas that normally have very heavy rough were thinner and tramped down by the galleries.  The greens were very receptive for Merion.  I saw full shots making good sized ball marks, and some shots from the rough that held the greens...this is abnormal for Merion.  Most of the time you fix a "dent" and can forget about stopping a ball from the rough.

That hardly sounds like the situations you had at Carnoustie a few years back, much less like the last US Ams at Pebble Beach and Oakmont, where the rough was like hay.

I'm fascinated by this, much in the same way I was a few years back when the British Open was played at Lytham at about 6800 yards and Duval won with about -7 or so (if memory serves).

Par, schmar...I just want to know why a little puny course like Merion is kicking ass of guys who bomb it and have 19 year old nerves on the greens.

Don't you want to know, Pat?  

[Brian_Gracely]

Although Mike, to be perfectly fair in making a comparison to Lytham, they didn't make any of their Par5s into Par4s.  So remove 2 strokes from Par right there, and then probably add .5-1.0 strokes for the psychological challenge that people have about playing a hole called a "Par4" vs. a "Par5".  

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

Mike the answer is easy....Merion is just a great golf course..nothing more complicated than that.

[Mike_Cirba]

Although Mike, to be perfectly fair in making a comparison to Lytham, they didn't make any of their Par5s into Par4s.  So remove 2 strokes from Par right there, and then probably add .5-1.0 strokes for the psychological challenge that people have about playing a hole called a "Par4" vs. a "Par5".  

Brian,

Did Lytham make their 5s into 4s for that Championship?  I don't recall that but that could just be my fading memory.

[Brian_Gracely]

Mike,

Ahh....just realized that Merion is normally a Par 70.  So this essentially makes it play longer than a 6900yd Lytham with 4 Par5s.

[Patrick_Mucci]

JSlonis,

Yes, but the weather rather than the superintendent and the USGA are more responsible for that.

Mike Cirba,

I know why.

It's been my limited experience that the rough at Merion is kept deep and lush, to the point of being highly punitive.
In addition, the fairway lines were never reclaimed from the US Opens, leaving the golf course far narrower than it's earlier or original versions.

When you add increased length to the equation, high scores are the result.

I believe the CARRY on the 18th hole, just to get to the flat rough is about 250 yards.  With a little wind in your face it's probably equivalent to a 260-270 carry.

As Jamie said, medal play creates additional pressures and Merion's greens kept fast and firm add to the challenge.

Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"

Would it exceed their abilities to play it ?

I recently played The Creek, a wonderful, sporty, challenging golf course.

I would hate the thought of altering The Creek for the benefit of hosting a championship, Amateur or Open.

In it's present form, it's perfect for member and guest alike.

I feel the same way about Merion.

Widen the fairways, get rid of a good number of trees, thin and reduce the height of the rough and let golfers ENJOY playing and challenging the golf course again.

Tournament golf has corrupted club's values.

[Brian_Gracely]

Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"

Pat,

When the membership agrees to make changes to their course and also agrees to host USGA events, aren't they essentially saying that they are more concerned with how it plays for the Tournaments than for themselves?  Basically they forego their right to care how the course plays for themselves by trying to stay in the championship rota.

[Lynn_Shackelford]

I too was wondering if there was some glee in the posts yesterday about the high scores at Merion.  I hope the high scores are a result of players making poor decisions and not being able to execute difficult shots, in other words frustrated at not being able to overpower a course, but still trying anyway.  I haven't played the course and will be anxious to see the height of the rough on TV.  I am not a big believer in rough.
Let's hope that, if the scores are a result of the genius of the design, that something can/will be learned by golf organizations and architects.
Please, some of you more knowledgeable about the course, feel free to tell us how the players are making doubles through incorrect thought process.  All I have heard is they chop out of the rough to an incorrect spot, hit on the green leaving a tough two putt, and then three jack.  That in itself tells me the design might be pretty brilliant, but is there more?
This could be a great learning experience for all of us.

[JSlonis]

Lynn,

I don't like to generalize, but...of the number of high scores I witnessed today, I would say simply, that a large majority were caused by poor swings compounded by even poorer thinking.

Merion is not a course that you can force shots on.  Even with poorer ballstriking, if you manage you game and your misses, you can still get around.  You'll make alot of bogeys for sure, but you can certainly avoid the others.

When I see the best players play courses like Merion, they are obviously concerned about where to hit the ball, but also quite concerned about where to ABSOLUTELY NOT hit the ball.  Unfortunately for them, I saw a lot of guys in the Am that needed to pay more attention to the second part of my above statement.

While many courses penalize bad shots, Merion does so to a much higher degree.  With the tough hole locations, and the great contours of the greens, if you compound those swing errors with poor judgement, you then get into big numbers.  This is what I love about Merion.  There are holes that are just flat out brutes: 3,5,6,14,17,& 18.  Then there are the many holes that appear easier and can offer some birdies, but at the same time you can make a double bogey quicker than you can blink.

[Patrick_Mucci]

Fans of Merion, and I'm one of them, ask yourself this question:
"How would the members fare on this course ?"

Pat,

When the membership agrees to make changes to their course and also agrees to host USGA events, aren't they essentially saying that they are more concerned with how it plays for the Tournaments than for themselves?

Brian,

Yes ...... sometimes.

In some cases I don't think they have a choice.

There appears to be an element in many clubs that wants to "showcase" their golf course.   Sometimes this results in creating devilish conditions or it can be manifested in soliciting and hosting outside tournaments.

Sometimes those that pursue or promote outside tournaments don't describe in detail to their membership what will happen to the golf course, or that it will be irretrievably altered.

Other times the members are told that the golf course will be returned to its original state, when that rarely happens.

And, there is always the promotion of the dollars and what they can do to make capital improvements and/or reduce member costs.

Each club has its own unique perspective on these issues and in many cases a small cadre of members make the decisions for the membership as a whole.

I know that Merion never fully recovered their wide fairways
after a US Open held many years ago.   Most members who joined in the last 20 years have no frame of reference and think that the golf course has always been as they know it.[/color]

Basically they forego their right to care how the course plays for themselves by trying to stay in the championship rota.

You're correct, but remember, the membership isn't monolithic, they don't have a single undivided thought process and view of the situation.

I'd venture to say that many members would prefer not hosting a tournament.

While I feel that clubs should donate the use of their golf course as a gesture of returning something to the game, I'm not a fan of making dramatic changes in playing conditions or the architecture that won't be undone when the tournament is over.

As I said earlier, I think Tournament Golf has corrupted the game.[/color]

[Michael Wharton-Palmer]

With the issue of member play been raised, I was under the impression that the course does not vary that much day in day out from what you are seeing this week.
Scott Nye, the pro at Merion has always told me that the course set up for member play is really not that different, except for maybe the pin placements.

Having not played there at any other time but in tournaments I cannot say, but that was my belief.

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