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Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #25 on: August 15, 2005, 10:31:59 PM »
Let me pose the question this way....do you guys consider the area from green to next tee an important part of the routing?  
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #26 on: August 15, 2005, 10:47:57 PM »
Personally?

You bet, the next tee should be no more than 50 yards from the previous green except if necessary around the clubhouse etc.  

But given environmental and housing considerations, that probably wishful thinking.  

And in today's distance situation, the next tee should be within 50 yards but have room to shove it back 50 yards in the next few years to accomodate those 550 yard par 4's and 700 yard par 5's!

David_Elvins

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #27 on: August 15, 2005, 11:09:54 PM »
It was obvious at Chicago Golf Club this weekend that C.B. MacDonald, who routed the course in 1894, had a fade or slice as his dominant shot pattern!  The front nine plays around the perimeter of the course clockwise through #8, when #13 goes to the perimeter followed along the perimeter by #14 and the tee shot on #15.  Old C.B. was no dummy, he never worried about driving OB!

I think it is an exampel of sensible routing rather than any personal bias.  I know of so many coures that have been, or will be, redesigned because of the "boundary issues" that arise when a course is routed anti clockwise around the boundary.
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Bill_McBride

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #28 on: August 15, 2005, 11:23:00 PM »
Read George Bahto's "Evangelist of Golf" about MacDonald's routing and personality in general.  The routing of Chicago Golf Club was no accident, and C.B. was not above taking advantage of a situation!

David Druzisky

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #29 on: August 15, 2005, 11:34:39 PM »
If I know it is a course where walking is part of the formula, then yes I make the transition from green to tee as seamless as possible.  More emphasis is placed on it in a private club situation as well.  Unfortunately these days it seems more often than not, walking is not in the formula.  Liability really makes it tough as well.

Anyway, the long runs between greens and tees are a great place for the beverage cart to catch the group that is allready at 4.5 hours and only on the 16th hole. :P

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #30 on: August 16, 2005, 08:01:07 AM »
David,
IMO if walking is not part of the formula and it is based on housing then what you have is several series of golf holes and I don't consider it a routing.  In modern golf and with modern machinery the routing is no longer as critical to many projects as it should be and then they wonder whats wrong.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

RJ_Daley

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #31 on: August 16, 2005, 11:58:00 AM »
Mike, a lot of heat coming off your posts lately.  This and the frustration thread really seem to be part and parcel of the same issue.  I see it as the sort of frustration that it seems to  me many craftsman and artists go through when they consider the commercial drek that comes along while they are at the height of their career trying to practice what they believe is the higher form of craftsmanship and competence.  That, along with seeing the crap that passes by because it exists in a commercial and speculative environment where sizzle is more important than substance.  

We have revisited the "collection of holes" discussion many times.  We all know that in comparison to the traditional or purist form of golf design, that long cart rides through subdivisions (even if populated with showpiece mansions) are a humbug.

Yet, even housing associated golf courses can have routings that can be done well or crappy.  Three examples of good, bad, and ugly in my opinion are:

Good:  Pine Needles, walkable, lovely journey or setting, housing is subtle, the flow of holes have good playing rhythm.  Even, considering that the original routing was changed, it all still fits nicely.

Bad:  most of those desert courses where they are still walkable, but have stark homes or patio home golf units on both sides of the hole corridor, and FWs way too close to OB that is on both sides.  Wherever the homes cause OB within the core, sucks, IMHO.

Ugly:  Where the cartball routing not only separates the holes by long drives, but the drives themselves are past backyard and sidelot easements between houses, down streets and so forth.  I played one such Art Hills course in Charleston (Goosecreek I think was the name) that had about 3-4 fairly interesting holes, and cart rides through kids on streets skateboarding, hopscotching, basketballing in driveways, etc.  It was literally depressing it had so little golf rhythm.

We checked out Lake Oconee Reynolds Plantation courses last fall.  There is a mixed bag of good and not so good.  The routing was through residential and scenic areas, mixed.  It was cartball.  It did fall into a category of "collection of holes" where most all of the holes were decent golf.  But, it did not have the flow and rhythm that say Pine Needles does, because the cart rides were just a wee too long between greens to tees in some places and you loose your focus.  But, it did not suck either.  With the multiple courses, I found it confusing, and lacking in the "feel" that you were on a golf course.  I felt you were being  offered a sampler platter of pub and grub apetizers, not a full course meal.  All that is due to disjunctive "routing" IMHO.

Personally, I think that the acceptance by the public to have golf interspersed with housing development and cartballing as a given, has created a different sort of golf.  It mitigates against the concept of sport, and creates a category of "better homes and gardens tour golf" as a society page atmosphere.   I doubt any of the golden era legends of the game and its course designs would even consider playing at places like Reynolds Plantation, even if there are good holes there because it isn't the game or sport of a defined rhythm anymore, it is just an amusing motorized social passtime.  
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Matt_Ward

Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #32 on: August 16, 2005, 12:21:29 PM »
Mike:

To answer your question -- the "true believers" on GCA would say "yes."

I take a more pragmatic approach -- clearly the site dictates the final arrangement. So long as the gap between the green that's been played and the next tee is not a redundant long trek -- equivalent to the NYC marathon -- I have no issue with it. A one time excursion can be forgotten provided the golf rises aboce it all.

Clearly, some sites must segway between certain parts of a given property and then get to other areas where the land is going to be used for the design.

The issue for me becomes one of understanding that the core golf experience cannot be "fitted" in such a way that the actual time spent playing is diverted to more and more driving of the carts. When that happens the experience of the course is then flipped on its head. If the situation is a constant one in taking long journeys then I don't object too much to the final outcome.

A_Clay_Man

Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #33 on: August 16, 2005, 01:25:25 PM »
Forrest, Adam:  pls give me some examples of courses with good rhythm

Cypress?  Pebble? Pinehurst?

Paul, I don't know if I've golfed a finer routing than Cypress Point. (Maybe Jasper Park? And the Original Banff?) Not only was there intimacy, but the clues that Mackenzie afforded, were helpful for this aware one and only timer.

Pebble Beach, now has a total flowus interuptus with the "IMPROVEMENTS" made to many holes. ::) Especially the 15th's new addition. I spoke with a buddy last night and he says that the new "pot" bunker is so poorly placed, that he now has no line, at any time, to give to his clients.

One of the modern routing gems is Pinon Hills in it's original configuration. Please read my feature interview for specifics.

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #34 on: August 16, 2005, 01:54:56 PM »
Mike, a lot of heat coming off your posts lately.  This and the frustration thread really seem to be part and parcel of the same issue.  

RJ,
No heat intended.  Just been in the office for a couple of days and trying to be an instigator.....didn't see much on the site that looked interesting.
Mike
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #35 on: August 16, 2005, 02:28:09 PM »
I'm waaaaaaaay :) in the minority on this one, but I'd gladly take a slightly less impressive hole if it means a really short walk green to tee versus a long ride. Of course, the best routings achieve this without sacrificing anything with respect to the holes. I don't like the book, but I agree with Shivas in Golf in the Kingdom - the gemme IS the walk (I think that's how he spelled it and said it).

One of the few things that I disliked about Tobacco Road was the long ride from the 14th green to the 15th tee. I thought it really disrupted the flow.

One of the coolest things about Applebrook, on the other hand, were the green to tee melds on some of the holes. That struck me as a course you could probably walk in 2 1/2 hours if no one else was holding you up, and yet the holes looked pretty great, too (the GCA outing walked it prior to its opening a few years ago - don't hate me because I haven't gotten back to Philly to play it yet!).

I'm not sure I'd say anyone could build 18 individual holes - I've played some forgettable tracks - but it does seem to be a really unique talent to incorporate great holes into a great walk.
« Last Edit: August 16, 2005, 02:28:58 PM by George Pazin »
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04

Mike_Young

  • Total Karma: 1
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #36 on: August 16, 2005, 02:46:21 PM »
George ,
Your post sums up what I was trying to say.
And one of the major things missing today is the green to tee melds....it's the element that some people just can't explain when they see a project they really like.
"just standing on a corner in Winslow Arizona"

Sean_A

  • Total Karma: 3
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #37 on: August 17, 2005, 04:56:49 AM »
George

It is interesting what you said about the walk between 14 and 15 at The Road.  When I was there with Sandbox and Scott B. they had a disussion about adding a 19th hole between the two.  I do not remember the details, but it certainly seemed like a decent par 3 could have been built.  For me the walk wasn't bad.  Not ideal for sure, but only a few minutes at most.  I disliked the long walk between nines much more.  It almost encourages a break between nines.  Depending on how things are going, this break can be good,   but in theory I dislike the practice of a break.  I think The Road is easily good enough to overcome these "faults" with the routing.  

What really gets me is if there is a long walk and the next hole is a dud.  How silly is that?

Ciao

Sean
New plays planned for 2025: Machrihanish Dunes, Dunaverty and Carradale

George Pazin

  • Total Karma: 0
Re:Define a golf course routing...
« Reply #38 on: August 17, 2005, 11:01:11 AM »
Good points, Sean, and I will say that I still loved the course, it was a relatively minor point. Maybe it would have felt better if I had been walking, but I don't remember that being an option at the time (I played it shortly after opening & I was not as hardcore a walker as I have become). It just seemed to break up the flow a bit too much to me. It probably didn't help that I nailed a drive down the semi blind fairway on 15 and couldn't find it.

You couldn't be more right about the long drive to a weak hole. That might be the most annoying thing in golf. I'd guess it'd be second to a series of those, which is also one of the things Mike is railing against here, I think.

Mike -

I do wish there were more green to tee melds, but I'd guess in today's ever changing climate with respect to distance, it's something that will (sadly) remain a novelty of sorts.
Big drivers and hot balls are the product of golf course design that rewards the hit one far then hit one high strategy.  Shinny showed everyone how to take care of this whole technology dilemma. - Pat Brockwell, 6/24/04