[Scott Witter]

I guess I'm not clear on what others define as a "signature architect" , but I do have my own opinion, it is really not important at this point.  Speaking about what an architect is or isn't, or what qualities one needs to have to be an architect, it seems that Warren has covered sufficiently and no, it certainly isn't exclusively about how much time you spend on site, but that particular aspect with the job does separate some of the boys from the men in their ability to see what needs to be done and make good decisions to execute correctly.

So, would it be more politically correct to define Rick Smith and perhaps even Gary Player and others... as course designers, in an effort to allow it a take looser, less formal definition with a milder scope of responsibility/understanding or involvement?  Please refrain from asking me to describe what I mean by "designer" I'll assume you all get it.

Shooter, I think Tom Doak begins to establish a more accurate scope of an architect, design/construction experience, and Warren does do a good job of filling in the blanks about the "architects" roles and responsibilities at least IMO.  Thanks Warren.  I have seen a fair amount of Ricks work, both studying the courses and playing them.  I've been to every one of his courses in Michigan for what ever that is worth, the old and the new.  Yes, I have seen Arcadia from many angles and I was there soon after the land slide... and no, I don't know of his particular involvement in that project, but Warren has painted that picture for us as well.  I have relatives in the state and visit often.

Warren, my apoligies regarding my additional off-hand reference to duck & cover, but it wasn't directed at Rick either.

[Warren_Henderson]

Tom:

My point exactly! How can you discuss the level of Rick's involvement and specifcally comment on the number of visits he makes to a site in comparison to tour players involved with design when you now admit that you have not visited with him in ten years? The projects under discussion here are all less than 10 years old.

The answer to your routing and green contouring questions is yes.

As you know there are two schools of thought on the use of plans on a project. My experience has exposed me to both perspectives, more plan intensive when I worked for the Nicklaus organization to an emphasis on site work with Dana Fry. I personally use plans for overall site planning and to establish budget parameters. In the case of Arcadia the only plan was the routing, every other aspect of the course was worked out as it evolved in the field. This is my preferred approach and the reason why I could not handle more than two active construction projects.

In regard to Gary Player - some yes and some no. I was responsible for 2 projects during my association with Gary Player. In comparison Gary visited the Dominican project the same number of times that Rick visited the Shenendoah site during construction, twice. In Philadelphia for the ACE project Gary came to the site more often than Rick visited Arcadia.

I think the thing that is most important is that the client fully understands just what to expect from a player/personality's  involvement in a project. From my experience the difficulty occcurs when people sell themselves as intimately involved with every detail and they fail to deliver this level of service.

[Craig Van Egmond]

Warren,
                Thank you very much for coming on here to clarify, its always helpful to  have someone involved with the situation clear the air.

                I enjoyed your work at Arcadia very much, love the course. What projects are you currently working on?  

Thanks.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

Warren, Tom, and all:

It continues to boggle my mind that direct sources such as TD and WH post to this board!

I am a resident of Arcadia in the summer, been so for 50 years. When AB came to town, it was truly the event of the century (1999!)

I've learned a ton about the course in this thread. Thanks for your time...

[cary lichtenstein]

Warren:

Your work at Arcadia Bluffs is outstanding and your posts are like a breath of fresh air

Cary

[S. Huffstutler]

Warren:

Your work at Arcadia Bluffs is outstanding and your posts are like a breath of fresh air

Cary

But Cary......It doesn't have the required Doak stamp of approval....how can it be any good?

Steve

[Tom_Doak]

Hey, Mike, I wasn't trying to put Warren on the spot.  He jumped in and I thought I'd ask him some questions while he was in the water.  I'm glad to hear him take credit for what he has done.  It shouldn't have to be an argument about who did what.

Then again, when you're on someone else's payroll, they are usually providing the security and the opportunity, and those count for something.  As a business owner I'm sure you see that side, too.

Since you asked:

Gil Hanse worked for me at Stonewall years ago, and like all my associates past and present he did whatever I asked him to do.  We inherited Tom Fazio's routing for the property, and I changed about six of those holes.  It was the first (and only) course where Gil shaped more of the greens than I did, and he shaped a lot of the bunkers, too ... just as my present associates have been doing on our more recent courses.  

Jack Nicklaus was certainly in a different role at Sebonack.  I had already done the routing for the golf course and he approved it, with one small change.  [I don't think Jack does the routings for very many of his signature designs; his associates do different routings and he provides input on them.]  Out of deference I sometimes had to act like I worked for Jack when we were on site, but I was welcome to disagree with his views, because we both understood the client was paying for my input, too.  We both had a fair bit of input on every green. A few of them were Jack's basic design, a few of them mine, and just as many were started out by Jim Urbina, Eric Iverson, Brian Slawnik and Brian Schneider, who each provided the basic design of at least one of those greens.

Does that put Gil at an equal level with Jack?  I have no idea how you'd score those things.  I know my associates think it sucks that they won't get ANY credit for their work at Sebonack because Jack and I are the official story ... but they do know I appreciate their help.

[Mike_Sweeney]

Tom,

I do enjoy zinging you once in a while (see some old Stonewall threads).   You were a gentleman for answering.

Of the many gaps in my resume, Jack Nicklaus may be the biggest as the only one that I have played is London Golf Club.

Thanks

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