How much did Arnold Palmer design Tralee?

[Jim Nugent]

Just looked through the profile of Tralee Golf Club in Ireland.  Course looks out of this world.  The description left me puzzled about one thing though.

Ed Seay is given credit as architect: Arnold Palmer´s name is never mentioned.  Yet every website I looked at on Tralee says Palmer and Seay designed the course together.  In fact, many of them don´t even mention Seay´s name.  At first I thought I had the wrong course.

Did Palmer play much of a role in designing Tralee?  Interested to know what he did and did not do there.

[PThomas]

if I had to make a wager.....

[Paul Richards]

Not sure.

But whomever did it, did a fantastic job!

17 very good to great holes and one ?

[Brad Klein]

Usually, if Palmer is given credit, it's Ed Seay. If Seay gets credit, the writer is doing his/her homework. Palmer has other capable associates, too, esp. now that Seay is tending his health.

[Jack_Marr]

Was Seay with him when he "designed" the new course at the K Club?

I played there yesterday and really enjoyed it. Much more enjoyable than the "Palmer" course, in my opinion. It even features hairy bunkers.

[Doug Sobieski]

Mr. Palmer and Ed Seay aren't leading the projects,  but serving as experienced guidance and oversight. Palmer's involvement is normally reviewing plans, providing insight during field visits, etc. The heavy lifting on the design work falls on the experienced team of Erik Larsen, Harrison Minchew, Vickie Martz, Ray Wiltse, Greg Stang, et al.

People tend to get caught up in semantics. A Harrison Minchew Signature Course isn't going to sell memberships or attract players for an owner. The course developers are going to leverage the recognizable names as much as they can.

Unfortunately, Ed's health has been poor for quite a while.

[Tiger_Bernhardt]

I do like Tralee a great deal. it has some odd aspects to it and equally odd holes. However I keep wanting to come back and play it again and again. That is something i do not feel about Waterville.

[Don Dinkmeyer]

I've only seen Tralee from the lot - really wanted to play it, find this interesting discussion of its parentage.

The comment on Waterville - i second that thought.

[Andy Doyle]

Why didn't you guys like Waterville?

The front 9 is OK (I didn't get to play 8 or 9 which were under renovation), but I really liked the back nine.  I particularly liked the tee shots on 17 and 18 - spectacular.

Andy

[Don Dinkmeyer]

Why didn't you guys like Waterville?

The front 9 is OK (I didn't get to play 8 or 9 which were under renovation), but I really liked the back nine.  I particularly liked the tee shots on 17 and 18 - spectacular.

Andy

Andy,

I liked it, i didn't love it. I played May 05 - renovations complete. The back is certainly better w/that par 3 over the "valley", the last 2 holes are visually spectacular to your right as you head home. As i understand it, they cut down the "brush" that blocked the view of the water.

Just aren't any holes that jump back into my memory. It's tough to compete w/Bbunion, RCD, etc!  

[Forrest Richardson]

Tralee is a terrific layout. Its only disappointment may be the green surrounds, of which some look like they belong in Florida. Overall, I rate it very high as the backbone of the course — its routing and cleverness — is really neat. My understanding is that Erik Larsen was the field architect for Palmer. I do not know what level of input Ed or Arnie had, but I am sure they weighed-in at this period of the firm's work.

I am often perplexed at the poor comments Tralee gets — especially from "purists". I suspect it is because these folks simply downplay any work by a mega-firm.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Forrest - may I venture that the inward half at Tralee is as beautiful as it gets but less interesting from a tactical nature when compared to the other Irish biggies.  Small misses result in huge distorted penalties on this nearly optionless back nine.  Tralee back nine is an Irish version of target golf.  

I send clients to Tralee regularly and even when I get minor grumbling I don't apologize - the esthetics are so good here.  But I think a more enlightened architect could have gotten more out of this spectacular piece of real estate.

Here's something for the treehouse.  What American has ever gone to the British Isles and done world class golf?  Dunkley and clan at Kingbarns?  Maybe.  Weiskopf at Loch Lomond.  Naaa.  Palmer at Tralee and K-club?  Most definitely not.

Calling Tom Doak at The Renaissance Club.....  

JC  

[Forrest Richardson]

What makes the description "target golf" a necessarily bad thing for Tralee's back nine?

I am not giving a blanket nod of agreement to your description, but it sounds as if your idea of a modern course built in Ireland must somehow ignore any new ideas of golf design. Are you saying that Palmer's design in Ireland should match or embrace a classic style that is — and only is — what might have been? That target concepts cannot be part of a new course in Ireland? Or, for that matter, that anything "new" is taboo?

I find this approach limiting. Tralee might not have as many options on the in nine, but this hardly makes it average. I am not at all certain it lessens the experience. There are hundreds of possibilities with that piece of land. I would have done many things differently. That does not make what has been created any less interesting.

I have always found it amusing that when Americans bring foreigners to our soil and show them links designs, the reaction is often: "This looks like home...show me Augusta...Oakmont...Riviera..." And, on the other hand, as Americans we are somehow turned off when our firends living in the British Isles take us to a place which has installed an automatic irrigation system and bunkers which look strangely American. We say, "take me to The Old Course...Cruden Bay..." etc.

[Sean_A]

The main problem with Tralee is not the fault of Tralee.  Two world class courses are sitting up the road.  Tralee loses this contest 10 of 10 at either Ballybunion or Lahinch.  

Ciao

Sean

[Forrest Richardson]

Of course...but then we can all identify with courses which are in the second tier, third, fourth, etc.  Great "anything" is made great by the greats just below them.

[Sean_A]

Forrest

I'm not sure I understand what "great by the greats just below them" means.  I read it as courses like Tralee help make the Ballybunions of this world great.  However, I don't think this is what you are trying to convey.  I would call Lahinch and Ballybunion great.  These two are in very elite company.  I would not term Tralee great in any sense of the word.  Tralee is a good course, but it doesn't interest me like other good courses.  Perhaps it has too much of the heroic sensibility for my liking.  

If I were at Dornoch I would probably make time for Brora and Fortrose.  Now, I don't think either of these two are better than Tralee, just more interesting.  I find the routing of both courses to be very good uses of the land (especially Fortrose) and the courses look less contrived than Tralee does.  

Of course, this is highly subjective and against the background of me looking for the pleasures the good value 2nd and 3rd tier courses can offer.

Ciao

Sean

[Forrest Richardson]

The very concept of "great" requires there to be degrees of greatness; and also elements which are not great — but perhaps in the eyes of others. Courses like Tralee DO elevate the unquestionably great. Just as anything else in life.

Lahinch and Ballybunion are certainly great. And, I agree, they are in an elite class. Tralee, in my opinion, will endure as a "great" couerse. It is not as "great" as the two examples you cite. Of modern courses in Ireland, it is very "great."

"Highly subjective"...of course.

[Jonathan Cummings]

Forrest - In my personal criteria of course evaluation I have, rightly or wrongly, always considered options to be a measure of quality.  I believe that an architect who defines "a" or "the" route has asked, through design, something less than he could have.  The true great courses have been played over and over again and yet still have unexplored avenues.  The architects who can best design into a course the richness of variety are most successful in engaging a player's intellect, and have captured an important essence of great course design.  

I know you'll resent this but I think Tralee, the back nine especially, is more dumb blonde than great golf.  The views may be the best in Ireland but the play is, sadly, constrained.

JC  

[Forrest Richardson]

The great thing about life is that dumb blondes play an integral role.

[Doug Siebert]

I think the reason why Tralee suffers in some people's minds (but not mine) is that there is such a different character to the nines.  The front is vaguely TOC-like: much flatter, lacking the more impressive sea views and Ballybunion/Lahinch scale mounds.  Wide open links.  The back is more constrained, playing like Prestwick in terms of some quirky lack of options in places.  But Prestwick is forgiven for this because it is Prestwick and it has been there longer than any of us.  Tralee's back nine sins because it plays through the dunes, and takes advantage of the eye candy where it can.  Some people can never forgive a course/architect for this (see Old Head)

Personally I think Tralee is a solid 8, maybe 8.5.  It could be a 9 with a few minor changes.  It'll never be a 10, but with all the work done on Waterville I still don't think it is a match for Tralee.  It has a bit of a manufactured quality to it on some holes (especially on the front nine holes that were renovated) that I can't get away from.  Yes, it does have its strategic standouts like the 16th (Liam's Ace) but it never hits its stride for me because everytime it strings together several nice holes it intersperses a weak one that really hurts it, this is a particular problem with the par 3s.

There are some who really dislike Tralee's par 3 12th as an example, but there is no denying it is one spectacular hole.  Some dislike it since in some conditions could be said to provide NO options (I played it last in a 40 mph following wind) to put the ball on the green in regulation, but dismiss the fact it is well designed for this eventuality and provides places to safely miss and give a chance at an up and down.

Having played Waterville twice (pre and post renovation) the only thing that would have me back on my next trip is the beauty of the Ring of Kerry.  Makes it a perfect destination if there are non golfers in your group.  The only thing that'll keep me away from a return to Tralee would be if there just wasn't time since Ballybunion and Lahinch, as 10s, are must plays whenever one is anywhere near them, regardless of anything else.  Hopefully next time I'm back I'll have time to play all three, and the wind will be howling and the rain staying away!

[Forrest Richardson]

Did I mention that the great thing about life is that dumb blondes play an integral role?

[Sean_A]

Forrest

I spose I disagree with your idea of great.  The idea of greatness is surely relative as you suggest.  However, the way you describe the term suggests that every course is great, just a matter of degree.  I think Tom D. had the right idea.  

Ballybunion 9.9 (I disagree with the idea of perfection!)
Lahinch 9 (not seen the revamp yet)
Tralee 6

Ciao

Sean

[paul cowley]

Forrest.....they've definately played an integral role in my life .....with some great, near, and not so great.

[Forrest Richardson]

No. Not all courses are "great."

Tralee has some very unique holes. This alone makes it a worthwhile course. Whether it is "great" is, as noted, a matter of great personal taste.

I maintain that the course is a great experience. When I played there I took away the designer and fact that it is a modern creation...aside from a very bits I found it very engaging, full of surprises and with plenty of interest.

I rate courses 1-18 ... at what point in an 18-hole round would I feel OK about walking off? Tralee gets a 15 ... which is quite high.

[Mike Hendren]

I rate courses 1-18 ... at what point in an 18-hole round would I feel OK about walking off?

So I take it Foulpointe is a 6?

Mike