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David_Tepper

Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« on: August 03, 2005, 01:17:55 PM »
There is an article in a Chicago paper today on a possible re-model for a US Open bid:

www.dailysouthtown.com/southtown/dssports/pro/033sd3.htm
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cary lichtenstein

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #1 on: August 03, 2005, 01:31:43 PM »
I like Cog Hill just the way it is
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Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Mike_Cirba

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #2 on: August 03, 2005, 01:38:30 PM »
Nice.

Sounds like Chicago will have two Rees Jones courses for US Open sites.  Hopefully he'll make it as good as Torrey Pines.
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Steve_ Shaffer

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #3 on: August 03, 2005, 02:40:24 PM »
Cog Hill will be competing with the newly renovated by T. Fazio of G. Fazio's Butler National for the chance to host an Open in Chicago. Butler National has agreed to open its membership if selected.
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"Some of us worship in churches, some in synagogues, some on golf courses ... "  Adlai Stevenson
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Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #4 on: August 03, 2005, 02:42:35 PM »
Doubt it will ever happen.

The USGA seems to be enamored with either coast and nothing in the middle.

 :P :-[ ::)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Matt_Ward

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #5 on: August 03, 2005, 06:24:56 PM »
David, Paul et al:

Isn't the real issue a zero sum one ...

If Cog Hill does land an Open it then comes at the expense of Olympia Fields?

I mean will the USGA actually have two Opens in the Chicago area through a compressed time frame like one sees in the greater New York area with Winged Foot in '06, then Bethpage Black in '09.

I don't see more than one candidate emerging and Butler National would be a very delicious alternate since it's been out of the way for too long IMHO.
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Jeff Goldman

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #6 on: August 03, 2005, 06:31:55 PM »
Any indication that (as indicated in the article) Butler is willing to admit Women to get an Open?  Shivas, what do you hear?

Jeff Goldman
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Jeff Goldman

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #7 on: August 03, 2005, 06:42:30 PM »
Shivas,

Thanks!  Give me a buzz tomorrow if you have the chance.

Jeff
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That was one hellacious beaver.

Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #8 on: August 03, 2005, 10:21:02 PM »
Matt

>I mean will the USGA actually have two Opens in the Chicago area through a compressed time frame like one sees in the greater New York area with Winged Foot in '06, then Bethpage Black in '09.


It would be nice if the USGA had even ONE Open in the Chicago area - or even the Midwest! - on its schedule.

There are none as far out as the USGA has set its Open schedule ....

 :-[ :-[ ::) :-[ ???
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

T_MacWood

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #9 on: August 03, 2005, 10:31:13 PM »
Rees vs. T.Fazio. I like Rees's chances...public venues are very popular and Cogg Hill's reputation is stronger than Butler's. Plus his Torrey beat Fazio's Riviera.  This is a very exciting development for golf architecture...Rees and TFazio with dooling renovations...New York, LA, Chicago...so many cities to look forward to....Boston, Philadelphia, Detroit, San Francsico, Cleveland, maybe even Columbus...keep up the good work!
« Last Edit: August 03, 2005, 11:05:24 PM by Tom MacWood »
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Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #10 on: August 03, 2005, 10:57:39 PM »
Tom

>public venues are very popular and Cogg Hill's reputation is stronger.


Cog is, IMHO, the (second -)  BEST truly public access course in the US.

Torrey was a very mediocre course that made almost NO use out of its spectacular setting along the ocean.  

I still can't believe Torrey got an Open and Cog hasn't.

 :P :P ::) :-[ :-[
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 06:24:40 AM by Paul Richards »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #11 on: August 04, 2005, 09:06:25 AM »
Quote from: Paul Richards on August 03, 2005, 10:57:39 PM



Cog is, IMHO, the BEST truly public access course in the US.


This is the saddest thing I have ever read here. Especially if it were true. which thankfully it isn't.

If Cog Hill, and the Jemsecks, really want to host an open so badly, they should blow-up all four course and start over with a new land plan.

That's how good Dubs is.!
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Lou_Duran

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #12 on: August 04, 2005, 12:39:37 PM »
Paul,

I know of one "truly public" golf course that better than CH4, and I think it is also cheaper (Bethpage Black).

Mr. Jemseck followed up a few months ago on comments I made regarding trees planted on the greenside of some fairway bunkers.  He did not like them any better than I did but consented to them because that's what the Tour wanted.  On a couple of holes, they've actually planted trees short of and beyond the bunkers.

It appears that how the big boys play the course has a significant bearing on the property's financials.  Maybe they get a lot of tourist play at #4 and these folks want to tackle a course whose reputation (Dubsdread) is consistent with how it plays.  Having the pros shoot 20 under probably does nor fare well for the course's image, and, therefore, its bottom line.

CH4 is in my top 5 public access courses, and they don't need to make the bunkers deeper and the greens smaller.  Unfortunately, catering to what I like may not be in Mr. Jemseck's best interests.  Personally, I'd get a volunteer army of chainsaw wielding golfers and start clearing trees from around the bunkers and some of the tees.

Open up the course, firm up the ground, and grow some lethal rough for the Western Open.  If the boys still shoot well under, then I would consider deepening the bunkers and finding new cup placements on the edges and slopes.  
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Matt_Ward

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #13 on: August 04, 2005, 01:57:31 PM »
Hard to imagine the USGA selection folks would be in Chicago for more than one site say over a 10-12 year period. If Olympia Fields is the "weak" alternate than competition from the others (Cog Hill, Butler National) may be sites that decide to enter the fray.

I'd like to see Butlet come back but I defer to Shivas and his knowledge of what the club will or won't do regarding its membership polciies.

Be curious -- if Cog Hill did host the Open what site would handle the Westerm Open? Can't imagine Olympia Fields would be interested in being the second banana.
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Steve Pozaric

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #14 on: August 04, 2005, 02:46:47 PM »
Don't forget, that for midwest open venues, Chicago will face competition in the form of the soon to be "Reesed" Bellerieve.
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Steve Pozaric

PThomas

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2005, 10:44:52 PM »
Olympia deserves another Open....when that course dried out on the weekend it was VERY CHALLENGING....it was a very cold spring that year, I remember that Wisconsin courses, for ex, had frost delays IN JUNE!!!!!..and remember the USGA had the rough cut down to very unlike Open lengths...and if anyone can tell me why that occurred I'd really be interested!
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199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #16 on: August 05, 2005, 06:21:06 AM »
>I know of one "truly public" golf course that better than CH4, and I think it is also cheaper (Bethpage Black).


Lou,


You are absolutely correct.

I should have said, "Dubsdread is the SECOND best truly public access course in the US."

Mea culpa.

The Black is by FAR the best.

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #17 on: August 05, 2005, 06:22:35 AM »
Adam

I'll admit #1 and #3 aren't much, but #2 is ok.

But #4 is special.

Don't over-deride it.  (is that even a word?)  ???
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 06:22:51 AM by Paul Richards »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #18 on: August 05, 2005, 06:28:47 AM »
> Butler would do no such thing.  No way. That's just a PC writer trying to force something through the power of the pen

Shivas may be absolutely right here.

However, look at the evidence.  Why stretch an already difficult members' course to 7600-plus yards and a rating of 78.1 if you weren't looking for some 'outside play'?  Butler was already PLENTY difficult.

My sources say that there may be a movement to get a US Open done.

Whether it passes is another story.

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #19 on: August 05, 2005, 06:29:52 AM »
>I know a guy who would probably give his eye teeth to get the Western Open back near 87th and Western, but I'm not naming any names...


Ready, willing and able. Reporting for duty, sir!

 ;)
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 06:31:44 AM by Paul Richards »
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #20 on: August 05, 2005, 06:34:21 AM »
Paul

>Olympia deserves another Open..

This statement is true.

However, read my lips, it ain't gonna happen.

The muckety-mucks at the USGA didn't like the scoring (mostly their own fault, as you point out) for the first two days when everyone and his brother went LOW.  They also didn't like the driver-LW that was played into the long fours (like the converted #18) where the pros flew it over their cross-walks and had a lob in.

The USGA obviously has biases - me'thinks it makes Olympia Fields a no-go.

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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

A_Clay_Man

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #21 on: August 05, 2005, 10:37:19 AM »
Quote from: Paul Richards on August 05, 2005, 06:22:35 AM


Don't over-deride it.  (is that even a word?)  ???

Paul, I'm not over-deriding  ;D, I'm just confused how someone, like yourself, who has seen the fundemental transformation of a golf course, the way Beverly has been transformed, and can still delude yourself that DubsDread is one of the countries finest.

It's just a possibility, that because you reside in close proximity to the course(a chicagoan) you are at a dis-advantage when forming a dispassionate evaluation.

In other words, you're a homer. ;D ;D ;D
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 10:38:13 AM by Adam Clayman »
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Lou_Duran

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #22 on: August 05, 2005, 11:20:53 AM »
Adam,

Do you not think CH4 deserves its standing in the rankings and its reputation?   If not, can you list its shortcomings?  I should know better than to question the discerning eye of a former caddie and Chicagoan.

Get rid of most of the plantings in the last 10+/- years, firm up the greens a bit, and I think it might be as good as most anything in Chicago. What do you think?
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rgkeller

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #23 on: August 05, 2005, 11:36:33 AM »
Any organization that would hold a national championship at Cog Hill would hold it at Torrey Pines South.
« Last Edit: August 05, 2005, 11:36:54 AM by rgkeller »
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Paul Richards

Re:Cog Hill enhancements for US Open bid?
« Reply #24 on: August 05, 2005, 12:50:59 PM »
Lou

>I should know better than to question the discerning eye of a former caddie and Chicagoan.

I thought you were talking about me.
 ;)
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"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG
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