"Specifically the 'significant turf loss' part because I am only 30 and may not have been aware of this 15 or 18 years ago, did Scott describe any detail of the turf loss during this philosophical transition? Were the fairways dead? I just don't recall any season in which the fairways and/or greens were lost. Chet, any memories of this."
Sully:
On that one I think I just might tread a little lightly for a while. It seems that Ran Morrissett is going to do an interview on here with Scott and this time he says he feels like just letting everything hang out and tell it like it is.
Scott's agronomist over there---he sure knows better than the rest of us the details of how to do things the way your club did for a lot of years now.
I come at this issue from the point of view of playability and Scott comes at it from the point of view of agronomy.
Obviously people like Linc Roden and your Dad came at it from both points of view and got the club to buy into it. But you should know how unique it was what HVGC has been doing, particularly how unique it was in the beginning.
Scott told me some years ago and he told me again yesterday that back then he and you all over there were totally on your own this way. Nobody was out there as a resource. The USGA Green Section wouldn't even talk to you about what you were doing agronomically. It just wasn't in their mindset then. If Scott and you guys fried that course and totally lost it I guess they didn't want the responsibliltiy of being part of any of it.
The processes that you all developed maintenance-wise were basically OJT. Scott doesn't mind admitting this anymore.
One time some years ago I asked him if he minded if I talked to him about the things he was doing over there and going to my club with his information. To my total surprise he said he sure did mind. When I asked him why he said because I should go to the people in your club first who let him do it and ask them if I could take that kind of info to my club or others.
I think Scott also felt or maybe still does that appearing to propose to others maintenance practices that different appears critcal of what other supers do and he doesn't want to appear that way. This is why he's always said to me that these kind of things have to start within the membership first, as they did at HVGC.
Now that anyone can see that other courses are doing what you all did way back then Scott's getting more comfortable about talking about it to others.
But you're asking about what he said about turf loss. That's what he told me yesterday, that a club has to be ready for the fact that in those transition years the turf loss can get significant. I think he said maybe 20-30%. What that kind of thing means to him agronomically, I believe, is to just get ready to kill grass and grass types that aren't strong and won't survive that kind of program. When you do that at the end of the mission the goal is to be left with grass that's really hardy and strong and will survive most anything naturally.
That's what you guys have now after all this time. At least that's the way he describes it.
Now, I can't go naming names here but some of us have said for some years to our clubs and others that we want the type of firm and fast playability HVGC has and the answers were---"Oh yeah, and do you want fairways and such that look as ratty as theirs do?"
I never exactly noticed that except once about 2-3 years ago. I remember I was on #2 fairway and I said to myself---this really does look ratty as hell. But you know what, it doesn't matter---that fairway and the rest of the course PLAYED great despite it.
The only good courses I've seen in modern times that can and have looked rattier now and then are Fishers, Maidstone and Newport. You should've seen Maidstone about three years ago in the Maidstone Bowl----the fairways were totally fried, all of them. But the thing most don't seem to realize is it really doesn't matter---even totally friend the play just fine---actually more than fine---very interesting. In conditions like that things like fat shots are actually very minimized.
And on courses like that as soon as it rains, it simply amazing---in just a day or two they are green again.
This is Nature's way Sully, and HVGC for years now is maintaining their golf course in Nature's way, not in some artificial "emergency ward" type way most others do with huge and unnatural over reliance on artificial irrigation and chemicals.
But you know what I guess most of us are coming to understand now or better now? All those courses that look so immaculate and persumably heathy because they're so green, really aren't very healthy. We now know they sure as hell aren't agronomy that's very tough. They exist in a pretty looking state but none-the-less in the agronomic "emergency ward" with over-reliance on artifical water and chemicals just like sick people rely on drugs.
I talked to Linc this morning at length. He wants HVGC to be noticed for what the course is and how it's been maintained. I talked to a few supers today who've been reading this.
Scott might take his processes on the road one of these days and tell others for the first time what he and you all figured out basically on your own. He'll probably do that if he thinks the memberships of other clubs are willing to listen. But if he thinks they aren't he may not do that.
First and foremost Scott Anderson is an advocate that these things have to start within a membership. Supers can do them but they can't do them on their own without some understanding and support amongst the membership. I guess supers can do it on their own if they want to but they'd pretty much have to be willing to put their jobs on the line each and every day.
What I do not know, in answer to your basic question, is if what Scott Anderson refers to as 'significant turf loss' that occurs to the tune of 20-30% during this kind of transition is exactly the same thing as what some of us refer to as "browing out".
That question needs to be answered first and really answered accurately if we on here are going to have an intelligent and benefical discussion on this general subject of firm and fast conditions that're prevalent at all times when it doesn't rain like at HVGC.