[Patrick_Mucci]

What courses offer these features in abundance ?

How much fun are they to play ?

If they are fun to play, why aren't there more courses designed with centerline hazards ?

Where do Wild Horse and NGLA fit in ?

[RJ_Daley]

Pat, I sure like 'em.  But, as you allude to, there aren't all than many architects designing them into their overall themes.  

A surprising architect thought to be quite mainstream and conventional is Bob Lohmann.  Yet, he designed a course here in my neck of the woods that has two great presentations of centerline bunker complexes that definitely offer distinct options for each side chosen.  And, of course getting into one of them is consequential by their nature as a hazard.  

I think the centerline hazard can be extended in concept not to only be an isolated bunker, but one that bottles in on diagonal, so long as it creates two distinct avenues.  Sutton Bay has that sort of large diagonal bunkering angling in to offer two distinct sections of fairway real estate into which you decide to drive your tee ball.  

Then there are the mid fairway, second shot hazards in the LZ for the third approach, or in a lay-up area for the very long approach par 4.  Their all good if not done to excess and offer food for thought and challenge to execute.  

I don't know why they are scarce.  I don't even think they are all that much more to maintain, and probably create just a fraction more of mowable fairway.  But, irrigation widths and capabilities are probably more the cause why they aren't designed more.

[Pete Lavallee]

What courses offer these features in abundance ?

TOC features 3 of the best: #12, #13 and #16. I'm hard pressed to find examples here in the USA. Barona Creek in SD has them on #1 (oak tree), #4 (bunker), #13 (creek) and #17 (creek). Pacific Dunes does it with bunkers on #2, #3, #12; both courses have the luxuery of ample width to make these holes work. CPC has some of the best central bunkering on #5, #6 in a slightly narrower corridor. The tiny bunker in the middle of #13 at Rustic Canyon demands attention depending on the wind.

How much fun are they to play ?

Frankly, more fun than humans should be allowed.

If they are fun to play, why aren't there more courses designed with centerline hazards ?

I'de like one central hazard much better than two flanking hazards any day; obviosly I'm in the minority with that opinion.

Where do Wild Horse and NGLA fit in ?

If these course make you play away from the middle of the fairway, I would relish playing either one.

[JNC Lyon]

     A new course near Rochester, Mill Creek, has centerline hazards designed by Paul Albanese. The holes four and five have alternate fairways with bunkers in between them, and seven and eight have bunkers in the midst of the fairway. Seven is interesting, because the fairway climbs over a rise, with a bunker placed smack in the middle of the fairway at the top of the rise, maybe 250 from the tips. There is about 30 yards of fairway on either side of the green, with the right side being the preferred side of the fairway.

     The eighth hole is even more interesting, as a 310 par four with three bunkers scattered about the fairway, providing at least seven(7) positioning options off the tee. Combine this with a diagonal carry over a small creek and a green that slopes from front to back towards a pond, a wonderful short four is created.

[Tom_Doak]

Mr. Lyon:

Paul Albanese is a friend.  Nevertheless, I must wonder how in the heck he could fit all of those bunkers and creek and pond and options into 310 yards!  Would love to see a diagram of the hole if you've got one.

[Tom_Doak]

By the way, Pat, when you talk about "centerline hazards" do you mean a bunker surrounded by fairway, or does a hazard on the direct line from tee to green on a dogleg hole count?

Sebonack has one or the other on holes 1, 2, 3, 4 (even though it's a par three), 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 18.  You might get sick of them before you're done!

[Mike_Cirba]

One example of centerline bunkering I really enjoyed recently was by Hurdzan/Fry on the second shot of the par five 17th hole at Jericho National in Bucks County, PA.

It's a superb hole, and one can either play safely left with the second shot, but be left with a very awkward third uphill, over bunkers to a shallow green running a bit away, or play right, carrying as much of the centerline field of bunkers as they dare, and have a fairly open third running down the lenght of the green, or try to carry them all by going straight, which end just before the green.  

The hole is made all the better by the fact that the drive is to a wide expanse of fairway, which is slightly hogbacked, but provides options from the tee to position your drive unimpeded for the more demanding shots to follow.

[A_Clay_Man]

Heck, I've even seen Hurzdan and Fry holes with'em. It's all the rage. Ever since that heratic Rihc Goodale started bad-mouthing Max Behr, and that feisty Tom Paul started quote'n him and all, right here in a public forum.

[Mike_Cirba]

I'd also mention that I've seen a lot of centerline bunkering from a Maryland architect named Dan Schlegel, formerly with Ault/Clark.  

If it's all the rage, as Adam suggests, then I say more power to the trend!  

[Bill_McBride]

Talking Stick North in Scottsdale AZ (Crenshaw/Coore) has several terrific centerline hazards -- #4 and #5 both with bunkers which must be dealt with right in the middle of the fairway, and #12 with the split fairways and sandy creekbed right in the center line.  I learned today from Mike Golden that #12 was completely man-made.  Fooled me, it looks like that sandy wash has been there forever.

[Kyle Harris]

Mike,

To add to your Jericho hole with great center bunkers: 6.

In this example, a small bunker fronts a wide but shallow green, allowing for many angles of play off the tee and into the green - depending on the day's hole location.

Schlegel also uses a nice bunker complex from his Ault/Clark days at Mountain Valley (Mahonoy City, PA) on the 7th Pine. One of the better short fours on the course and following the dumbest par five ever.

The bunkers pinches the short cut to the green betweem themselves and a pond. Driving the green can be achieved with a hard draw directly over them and bailing out/staying short of them will yeild the ideal line to the green for a wedge approach. The green could be considered a cape, with a narrow opening, bunkers right, deep fall off to the back right and back, and the pond left.



The new nines at Mountain Valley, also done by Schlegel I believe, have several center line bunkers in use.

Gil Hanse restored a WONDERFUL centerline bunker on the 12th hole at West Shore CC in Harrisburg. The idea is to aim directly for or to the right of the hazard to obtain a more optimum look at the green in two (or a better angle to lay up) or bail out to the right, taking the green in two out of play and also leaving a blind second shot.

[Paul_Turner]

Wild Horse certainly has plenty of them.

I think, in general, that even the old architects used them sparingly.  Careful not to over do it.

The double level fairway at Southerndown (with its ridge) is a uniquely, long, centreline hazard.

[Patrick_Mucci]

By the way, Pat, when you talk about "centerline hazards" do you mean a bunker surrounded by fairway, or does a hazard on the direct line from tee to green on a dogleg hole count?
I was favoring bunkers surrounded by fairways, but, also considering bunkers that impact the centerline like the bunker on # 5 at NGLA.[/color]

Sebonack has one or the other on holes 1, 2, 3, 4 (even though it's a par three), 5, 6, 7, 9, 10, 11, 13, 14, and 18.  You might get sick of them before you're done!
No, I'm sure that I'll find them quite interesting.

I don't think I'd ever get sick or tired of holes where I'm presented a choice with respect to the lines of play.[/color]

Redanman,

What golf courses, what holes ?

[DMoriarty]

What courses offer these features in abundance ?

Not exactly sure what qualifies as a centerline hazard.  Do diagonal hazards which bisect fairways, giving the golfer the option of going over to one side or staying short on another, count?  (See photo below.)

Whatever qualifies, Rustic has its share.   Some of my recent favorites are on the par fives, and come into play on second or third shot:  The pot bunker in the landing area on the fifth, the second centerline bunker on the 13th (not the one Pete mentions, but the one in the horseshoe of the green,) and the one pictured below, on the opening hole.  

How much fun are they to play ?

Much fun.

If they are fun to play, why aren't there more courses designed with centerline hazards ?

. . . I cant say without being called biased.

Where do Wild Horse and NGLA fit in ?

Havent played Wild Horse.  NGLA fits in as it always has; the exemplar for much of what is good in golf design, past and present.   Whoops there goes my bias again.
 
One of my favorite hazards with fairway on both sides . . .

[Doug Siebert]

DMoriarty,

For me, a centerline hazard would be one in which it is possible and reasonable to go around it on either side, in the fairway.  So a small bunker or depression or even something less desireable like an evergreen tree or tiny pond would qualify if they are relatively small in relation to the fairway width, but I personally wouldn't consider for instance a 30 yard wide bunker in the center of a 38 yard wide fairway a centerline hazard, since only Moe Norman would aim down either side (though if the rough isn't too bad it wouldn't necessarily be a bad play to aim there, but not really within the spirit of the definition for me)

I'm curious how my definition compares to others in this regard.

[Scott Witter]

Tom Doak,

I played Mill Creek yesterday after a meeting in Rochester for other work.  Paul A actually did a very good job of the 8th hole though I can understand how it could sound difficult to squeeze in all those features and accomplish an effective hole.  I will also say the 7th hole is one of the more interesting and solid par 4's I have played.  The location/shaping/alignment/distance of the center bunker and the supporting and very effective bunkers deep right (290) and short left (220) set up the tee shot and make players think... The approach shot is quite challenging as the green is diagonal to L.O.P. and it slopes from left to right with rolling tiers and a deep big bunker protecting the entire left side.  I know because I was in that bunker yesterday, but managed an up and down for par.

The 4th hole was also done very well and engages the player to make a smart decision and execute well based on what really is their best approach to yet another interesting putting surface.

So I know all this because I designed the clubhouse site complex and the short game learning center.  I too know Paul and I will be playing with him on August 6th at Mill Creek's grand opening tournament.

[Keith Durrant]

9th at North Berwick & 6th at Carnoustie:



Strategy is enhanced or accentuated by the presence of OOB on both holes. Taking the left route and running the gauntlet of the OOB leaves a shorter shot into the green at N.Berwick and better line at Carnoustie.

It's a lot of fun trying to thread the needle and the fact that these are par 5s and the Driver is in hand, enhances the challenge.

[Jimmy Muratt]

Pat,

Kinloch has quite a few centerline hazards that create strategic decisions on many holes.  Below I will show a pic of a short par 4, #4, that has a creek running diagonally up the middle of a split fairway and two reachable par 5's that are heavily influenced by centerline hazards.

#4, 334 yards


#9, 556 yards


#11, 495 yards

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

#5 at Cobb's Creek in Philadelphia fits the description for this thread.  Hugh Wilson designed the hole with the creek running slightly diagonal up through the middle of the fairway.  You can play a high fade around the trees on the right and have a short, straight shot to the green or bail out left off the tee and have to cross the creek again on your approach.  From the back tee (which is not often used) it is a tough tee shot.

I wish I had a picture of the hole for this thread.

[Sean_A]

Keith

Those center bunkers at #9 North Berwick are very well placed, especially since the rough has been allowed to get rough to the right of the bunkers.  Last I was there I hit a long, low,  looping hook that hit the wall on the left side of the fairway and bounced forward 40 yards past the bunkers.  Four was inevitable after that.  

Ciao

Sean

[peter_p]

     The John Fought course at the Reserve Vineyards used to have one on the first hole, a large bunker with enough fairway on either side so you could position the ball per hole position.
     With the Champions Tour Jeld Wen on site, and narrow faiways prescribed, they have permanently eliminated the right side fairway option with rough. The bunker now looks orphaned and makes you wonder why John designed the hole that way.  
      Ironically, all the pros can easily carry the bunker from the tips so the change is wasted.

[Mike Benham]

The 12th at Stanford ... and drawing doesn't do the tree justice, it is really twice the width ...

[Dan Herrmann]

#9 at Gil's French Creek has a number of sand bunkers in the middle of a split fairway.  Very nice effect - a tougher but shorter shot from the tee on the lower right-hand side, or a longer tee shot-required up on the top left-hand side.

#11 has the stone wall fronting the green complex

#2 has large bunkers in the center of the fairway, as does #6.

I'll try to post some pics when I submit my "My Home Course" soon..

[DMoriarty]

Shivas,

I think I am the only other "Dave" who has posted on this thread, so I think you might have meant "Doug" rather than "Dave."  

I generally agree with Doug as well, but dont know why you would want to exclude a small depression (or its opposite-- a small mound) from the equation.  

If the small depression or mound instructs strategy then why shouldn't it be considered in the same light.  What do you have against using contour as a strategic feature anyways.  Couldn't be that ground contour alone is not penal enough for your tastes, could it?  

[Patrick_Mucci]

Wild Horse certainly has plenty of them.

Paul,

I thought the use of the staggered centerline bunkers at Wild Horse on the second shots on par 5's was brilliant and a real challenge[/color]

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