City of Charleston (Municipal)

[RE Blanks]

Anyone have any info on the history of this course?  It looks like it is one of the oldest courses in the area, but is credited with as a 1937 John Aedms??   Did Raynor have anything to do with this one?  CCC is about a mile.

[Brent Hutto]

I played there just a couple weeks ago and didn't even think to ask about its history. I think it has probably been nipped and tucked and rearranged considerably over the years. At the very least it didn't strike me as having a coherent design theme. It was a fun afternoon, though. Plays pretty firm with the rough cut just long enough to affect your shot without being so deep as to delay play looking for balls. Something like seven bucks all you can play after 4:00PM.

[RE Blanks]

The reason I ask is, I have heard that a course has existed on this piece of property since the early 1900's.  Also that Raynor might have done some work here when doing other projects in the area.  I have aslo played it, but it was 4 or 5 years ago.  It was a fun little course and I agree the course seemed very chopped up.  I might have to go back and check it out next time i am in the area

[Nathan Cashwell]

I played it a few times when I used to live down there, but that's been 5 years.  I don't remember too much about it, that should tell you something.  I do remember that there wasn't much to it, certainly didn't have any Raynor elements or any of the holes that Raynor regularly used.  I'm not sure if he routed it or not, of course he died in '26.  The course is your typical muni.  Like I said the last time I played it was 5 years ago, but I'll probably be back down there coming up soon and have to drive by it so I'll stop by and check it out again.  Of course Harleston Greens was the first golf course in the Southeast (1780's I believe).  It was just outside of downtown Charleston and the house I lived in down there was built on the site of the old course.

[BigEdSC]

This past spring, the Post & Courier, the local paper, did a large article on the course, celebrating 75 years that it has been open.  I wish that I saved it, because a lot of people have been asking about the course.  It has a lot of history to it.

The routing isn't your typical muni routing.  Rumors that I have heard, that aren't substantiated, have Raynor helping route the course, since he was building CCC and Yeaman's Hall at the time.  How true that is, I don't know.  

As far as the architectural aspect of the course, except for the 10th green, the greens are relatively flat.  The first and 10th tees have OB down both sides of the fairways

[BigEdSC]

http://archives.postandcourier.com/archive/arch04/0704/arc07041808308.shtml

This is a link to the article I was mentioning.  If you can't get it and care to read about it, go to charleston.net and go to the archives and type in "city of charleston municipal golf course."  The article was written 7/4/2004.

[RE Blanks]

Thanks.  That was a very informative article.  I am going to be over that way next week and may swing by, have a look around, and maybe snap some photos.  Thanks for the info

[George_Bahto]

I have it credited to Raynor designed during the period CC of Charleston was being built.

I have the aerial that shows the classic holes and after spending a lot of time there (about a year ago), although pretty well disguised by now, you can see his design through it all.

There is even a Road hole there with a road behind the green!

I have it pretty well documented now.

Remember, it was a muni for the city from the git-go.

[BigEdSC]

George

Thanks for the clarification.  You're right, if you look hard enough, you can see some of Raynor's classic holes here.  Number 4, the par 3 has similiar contours as 17 at the Country Club.  I imagine that it was probably more pronounced years ago, and with topdressing and time, it has flattened out a little.  

As far as the Road hole, which one is it?  9 has a road behind it, but no bunker; 10 is a par 5 with a shallow bunker in front, and a road behind it; and 17 has a medium depth bunker, but the road is set back quite a ways.  

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Of course Harleston Greens was the first golf course in the Southeast (1780's I believe).  It was just outside of downtown Charleston and the house I lived in down there was built on the site of the old course.

I have heard many accounts that "Harleston Green" or "Charleston Green" (depending on where you read it) was the first golf course in the entire country.  In fact here is a story that mentions it, and within the same story it is spelled two different ways:

http://www.worldgolf.com/golf-destinations/carolinas/charleston-golf.htm

I have often wanted to find out exactly where that was located in downtown Charleston.  You say that your house was on top of the old location.  Where was that exactly?  Do you know the cross streets?   My wife drags me down to downtown Charleston several times a year and at least if I have to put up with all that shopping the least I can do is think about walking on top of the hallowed grounds where golf in this country probably started.

Let me know I would be very interested.

[Mike Vegis @ Kiawah]

Maybank Highway runs right through the middle of the course.  Since golfers have to cross the highway twice (once between 9 and 10 and again in the middle of the back nine), the city of Charleston decided to create their version of the Big Dig, spending millions to dig a tunnel under the road rather than putting up a traffic signal.  So, rather than efficiency, our local government is lining the pockets of a local contractor.  

By the way, there's only one tunnel.  Golfers still have to play "Frogger" going from 9 to 10.  Corruption and inefficiencies.   Welcome to the old South.

[Daryl "Turboe" Boe]

Wow Mike we must have been typing at the same time.  I just posted and when I went to look your post was already there.

[RJ_Daley]

My wife drags me down to downtown Charleston several times a year and at least if I have to put up with all that shopping...

Daryl, not to turn this into a chamber of commerce travelogue, but Charleston is the one place my wife can drag me along street after street and I don't ever get tired of it.  

George B and I spoke about Charleston when we were at the R.I. SRS gathering.  I never played there, but had stopped a few times when I have been passing by on Maybank Hwy and felt that the old bones of the course were clearly Raynor influenced.  Perhaps, being a muni, the banks and earthworks were a little more subdued, less dirt moved to create the features, but they are there none the less.  Probably an old road builder was employed by the municipality to actually follow plans Raynor might have sketched out while in town for CCofC, and the parks dept. chief oversaw the construction.  Some of the bunkers and adjacent mounds are now grass hollows rather than sand bottomed.  But, the placements and such seem quite obvious I think.  I can envision a situation where they would go look at what Raynor was doing at CCofC, then come back, tone it down to save $$$, and you end up with a shadow of what Raynor might have had done, had he participated fully.  Of course, all that is just speculation on my part.

[George_Bahto]

Between some of the holes are abandoned bunkers - just left to grass but not erased - very cool stuff. I think there were a couple of back-to back "jobbers" where one served one hole and the other served the parallel hole from the other direction. Now they are in the (long ago, planted) tree-line but their shapes are preserved.

I mean this is not some kind of semi-great course but it is interesting in the So Carolina/Raynor story.

I think the "Road-hole" green complex is on the 10th, when you cross the road (Maybank Highway)

The "usual suspect holes are there in some form if you know what to look for.

Itz funny, I looked at this course about 8 years ago and just wrote it off as being a local (non-Raynor) course although I felt that there was a distinct possibility that he might have designed a muni for the locals who couldn't belong to "Country Club" (as they refer to CC of C) or Yeamans Hall. He did that on a number of occasions: S'hampton CC, Wanumetonomy in RI, Cranford CC (NJ); and a few others.

A couple of local men contacted me with a lot more material and the "facts" came to the fore.

Then I spent an entire day with one of my contacts and, along with his info, and the course itself, it became pretty clear it was in fact a Raynor design built by CC of C's Johnny Adams.

Adams was the asst pro to the great Henry Picard there - I even have a scorecard from 1933 signed by him (J Adams).

It seems the course originally had 14 or 15 holes because the marsh area on holes 13 - 14 -15 & 16 were virtually too swampy when the tide came in ......  its still a problem there but those holes are pretty neat.

Cost of play in 1929: 50 cents and you could buy a book of 30 tickets for 10 bucks!!

Cost of the course to the city?? ...... $17,003. 09 was spent on construction, maint. And early work on a clubhouse. The land was donated by the city.

Anyhow, to me, this "discovery" stuff is really fun. I've found about 30 courses SR built that he had not gotten credit for (from when I first started researching their work), who now know he was in fact at their course at one time or another.

Ed Galbavy: 4 is some sort of Redan (remember it was J Adams doing the building so there would be major variations - costs and interpretations by him, among some of the reasons for the variations).

Eden is the 11th - Short the 14th - a Bowl on 13.

.... crossing the highway is very exciting .....


in all, very interesting stuff.

HELP if you can: I lost a contact, a Jack Pennington a couple years ago and wish I could "find" him again.

Perhaps someone in the area would recognize the name - a lawyer, I think

gb

[BigEdSC]

George

Thank you for your insight.  The muni is one of those golf courses that if you take your mind off of your game and your score and look around at the course, you'll notice a lot of unique things there.

One thing I always wondered was the mounding between 5 & 6 and you mentioned about the bunkers that were abandoned and I can see them there, along with the tall pine trees that were probably been planted a long time ago.

I also can see the Short, Eden, and even the Redan types in the par 3's, even though the greens have either been reshaped or reworked over the last 75 years.

Also, you're right, crossing Maybank Hwy. isn't any fun.  One of the last times I played, I crossed between 14 & 15, and reached the grass, and a car approached and swerved into the grass and tried to hit me.  I wished that I had a club in my hand, and I would of buried it in the windshield.

I looked in the phone book for Jack Pennington and there wasn't a listing.  

Thanks again.

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