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cary lichtenstein

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Here is a fair and honest question that should be addressed at this time:

Has GolfClubAtlas become so dominated by a vocal group of minimiliists that the opinions of others are no longer wanted?

Should those of us, like myself, cease to voice our opinions that in some cases be contrary to the ruling body?

After seeing the recent bashing yesterday on the photos of Black Rock, I got real disgusted with all the negativism on this site.

Is there room for another website that is more opened minded or are there any other guys on GCA that are not vocal, that are not in lock step with the minialisits?

Don't get me wrong, I find nothing wrong with minimialism and in some cases it is great, it's just not, IMHO appropraite for a deminius site.
« Last Edit: July 20, 2005, 11:05:46 PM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

Jim Nugent

Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #1 on: July 20, 2005, 11:11:51 PM »
Here is a fair and honest question that should be addressed at this time:

Has GolfClubAtlas become so dominated by a vocal group of minimiliists that the opinions of others are no longer wanted?

Should those of us, like myself, cease to voice our opinions that in some cases be contrary to the ruling body?

After seeing the recent bashing yesterday on the photos of Black Rock, I got real disgusted with all the negativism on this site.

Is there room for another website that is more opened minded or are there any other guys on GCA that are not vocal, that are not in lock step with the minialisits?

Don't get me wrong, I find nothing wrong with minimialism and in some cases it is great, it's just not, IMHO appropraite for a deminius site.

Please never stop voicing your opionions, however the chips fall, or whoever might disagree with you.  

PThomas

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #2 on: July 20, 2005, 11:16:05 PM »
it's a DISCUSSION group, so let them fly Cary!!  

each course should be evaluated on its own merits; not doing so is just a form of prejudice
199 played, only Augusta National left to play!

Paul Richards

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2005, 11:26:27 PM »
Hardly.

Read about how all of the amateur architects on this site want to make changes to the 18th at TOC.

That hardly qualifies for 'minimalism.'

 :-[ :P
"Something has to change, otherwise the never-ending arms race that benefits only a few manufacturers will continue to lead to longer courses, narrower fairways, smaller greens, more rough, more expensive rounds, and other mechanisms that will leave golf's future in doubt." -  TFOG

RJ_Daley

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #4 on: July 21, 2005, 12:00:08 AM »
I just now looked at the spectacular pictures of Black Rock.  What an amusement park!  Thanks to Cary for calling it to my attention.  I appreciate the picture very much.  I appreciate the landscape artistry very much.  If it costs more than $100 to play, I'm not interested.  I'd play it for a reasonable price for amusement.   I'd rather play a version of golf I enjoy more, for the golf aspect, however.

Now Cary, I'd like to answer your questions as honestly as I can.

Quote
Has GolfClubAtlas become so dominated by a vocal group of minimiliists that the opinions of others are no longer wanted?

I don't think so in the least.  It would be boring if there weren't many points of view.  While the website may have a certain theme or a dominant view that leans towards minimal, I don't think the minimalists seek anything more than a discussion of the merits of golf course architecture when speaking of specific golf courses.  Should they go away because they hold minimalists views?  I don't see any exclusion or expression that many views aren't valued.

Quote
Should those of us, like myself, cease to voice our opinions that in some cases be contrary to the ruling body?

The only ruling body I recognise on GCA.com is the Morrisett's edit rights, should they become necessary.  I think they have been quite liberal in allowing sometimes heated and sometimes overzealous debates that generate to unfortunate name calling.  They are the ruling body. <-- period

Quote
After seeing the recent bashing yesterday on the photos of Black Rock, I got real disgusted with all the negativism on this site.

I can only try to encourage you to tolerate the fact that some of us don't see merit in such extravaganza for extravaganza sake.  Personally, I see an exhibition of landscape artistry in the BR photos and would pay a certain price point to play at BR to see and study it as a massive work of LA.  But please, I have my own notions of what a real golf course should be, or what I want out of one.  Extravaganza, high costs, and bombastic production doesn't necessarily mean golf to me.  I think I might share that view with a few others that post here.  So...?

Quote
Is there room for another website that is more opened minded or are there any other guys on GCA that are not vocal, that are not in lock step with the minialisits?

After several years participating here, I'd say there are plenty of posters not in lockstep with anyone.

Quote
Don't get me wrong, I find nothing wrong with minimialism and in some cases it is great, it's just not, IMHO appropraite for a deminius site.

I can't understand the use of di minimus as it applies to describing GCA.com, or find 'deminius' in any dictionary.  But for the record, I don't find anything wrong with great GCA that is not minimalist, if the product is great golf.  I'd throw Whistling Straits in that category of big project, but great golf.  BR, I won't say for certain unless I played there. But, I do reserve the right to a first impression to the photos...
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Tom_Doak

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #5 on: July 21, 2005, 12:00:45 AM »
Shivas:  I will respectfully disagree with nearly all of your post.  I'm positive about golf and certainly not desperate.  

I do think the equipment thing is making the game less interesting for the best players, and therefore less fun to watch, and I think that's bad for the future of the game.  But I don't overreact to that in my day job, because I'm not designing anything for Tiger Woods (yet).

This site is dominated by a group of guys who are used to seeing themselves as lone voices in the wilderness, railing against the "grip it and rip it" set they have to watch on the golf course every weekend ... I think it is more about a style of play  than about a style of design, but I could be wrong.  Anyway, I think you would agree, this is the only place where most of these guys feel part of the majority, and you know what Machiavelli had to say about that.  Dissenting opinions do get short shrift here, more often than they should.  But they generally only get "shouted down" when they are shouting themselves.

By the way, a good rule of thumb is if you don't count being called a "heretic" as a compliment, then you're probably not a true heretic.  Relax and enjoy the status, man.


Michael Dugger

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #6 on: July 21, 2005, 12:16:14 AM »
Cary,

Don't let them get to you!!  

I, for one, have felt similar things regarding this website, but screw 'em.  In my case, it is that I think Rees Jones is an untalented designer that gets me into trouble.  For you, it's voicing positive approval of some of Jim Engh's work.

The bottomline is that we all feel differently about what we like.....thankfully.

It would be an awfully boring world without these differences, though, doncha think?!?!

This website is full of a bunch of golf course geeks, plain and simple.  It's no different than gear heads or wine buffs.  We get into our stuff here!!!

My ex-girlfriend thinks the world of the new....old Thunderbird.  To her this car is the penultimate, to me it is a piece of garbage.  

She knows her cars, and defends it well, but what she is looking for is different.

If Black Rock tickles you pink.....more power to you.  For me, personally, I think golf is better suited to linksland.  I can't get down with Black Rock.  But that's because I am looking for something different than you, I am going to speculate, in my golf courses.

Minimalism does appeal to my tastes more--no doubt about it--but that's not to say I cannot understand why those who will go unnamed may like what Rees Jones "designs."

I hope this makes sense  


What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

RJ_Daley

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #7 on: July 21, 2005, 12:17:28 AM »
Is this a private fight or can anyone get in?

Tom Doak, minimalist, Rawls, Stone Eagle; do these words all belong in the same sentence?  ;D
No actual golf rounds were ruined or delayed, nor golf rules broken, in the taking of any photographs that may be displayed by the above forum user.

Michael Dugger

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2005, 12:23:58 AM »
OK, then answer me this:

Precisely why do people worship the ground you walk on around here if not for your minimalism?



Because golf is a game intrinsically intertwined with nature and Tom Doak understands that.  Because he had the balls to write as much in his books nearly fifteen years ago when the Jones camp had golf course design by the short hairs.  Because each of his new courses look in harmony with their existing landscape, like they have been there for years and years.  Because no matter how long a golf course is stretched, a 400 yd drive and a one inch putt still constitute one stroke.  Thus, clever greens match incredible distances.  This may seem like a no-brainer but people keep building longer and longer courses.

But lastly, I admire Tom Doak because he is doing it the old fashioned way, he eeaaaarrrrnnns it.  He isn't willing to compromise his basic tenets even though they may seem unpopular at times.  Yet, he continues to build great new course after great new course, which is slowly but surely convincing the proverbial "old guard" that they have been asleep since 1935!      
What does it matter if the poor player can putt all the way from tee to green, provided that he has to zigzag so frequently that he takes six or seven putts to reach it?     --Alistair Mackenzie--

John_Conley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2005, 12:35:09 AM »
Quass:

You are on to something here.  There are tons of people who frequent this site that aren't minimalists as much as they are retroists.  Playing old equipment as more than a novelty, not keeping score, railing against courses with houses, etc...

I suggest you define what you use the site for and don't worry too much about the other stuff.

GCA.com is a place to...

* meet other guys to play golf with
* discuss all things golf when current events are happenin'
* learn about new course openings in the US
* discover underappreciated tracks
* get help planning trips overseas
* brag about all the great courses you've played
* be nostalgic about how it used to be
* analyze every grain of sand in a Tillinghast bunker
* lose yourself online instead of dealing with real people outdoors
* bash the stodgy USGA
* etc...

I use the site for things other than what you might.  And I know I use it for things different than some of the zealots.  Doesn't mean anyone is a bad guy, just that we may not see the golf world the same way.

There are tons more guys on the site than the handful that may have lined up against you on the Black Rock thread.  I have played one of Jim's courses and would love to play another.  Doesn't mean I think he's going to lay out the next Cuscowilla, but I'm sure I'd have a great time playing it.

What you have to understand is that you won't be able to change the opinions of people with markedly different baselines than you.  Like politics or religion, people aren't trying to find ways to think what someone else thinks.

Part of this was brought upon yourself.  Calling something "Top Ten in the World" is utterly insane.  I don't care what the course looks like, you'll obviously run in to about a thousand people that don't agree for every one that does.  So you'll be left trying to "defend" a statement that people aren't going to agree with no matter what you say.

You think Black Rock is great.  Got it.  I'm glad to see all the pictures.  Cool.  But to try to get others, some of whom think that a construction crew should walk behind a few oxen to grade the fairways, to agree is too tall of a task to undertake.

My suggestion is to figure out why you use the site and don't fight battles with those that are looking at a different book.

John Kirk

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2005, 12:38:16 AM »
My two cents:

I think it's more accurate to say the group is dominated by a few vocal members who think old golf courses are designed better.  With the exception of few of our modern architects, if it's not 70+ years old, it's crap.

I've gotten to the point where I see pictures of classic courses here (recent photos of Aronomink GC, for instance), and I'm looking for where the earth was moved.  Classic courses aren't necessarily minimalist creations.

In terms of minimalist architecture, a seamless transition between the golf course and its environment is very artistic.  But it's only part of the equation.  Beautiful is great; fun to play is the paramount objective.

Tim_Weiman

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2005, 01:00:46 AM »
I agree with the sentiment expressed by Tom Doak. This site is one of the few places where one can find appreciation for "minimalism".

So, what is the complaint?

Must we eliminate all concern for the impact technology is having on the game?

It's funny. This small, vocal group of minimalists actually gets described as the "ruling body".......meanwhile the golf technology arms race goes on and on.

Believe me, if "minimalists" were the "ruling body", we wouldn't be seeing things like that crazy new tee on #4 at Oakmont.
Tim Weiman

Sean_A

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Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #12 on: July 21, 2005, 04:26:58 AM »
Cary

While I would agree with you regarding the very strong minimalist (whatever this means-still not had a solid definition from folks out there) trend on this site, it all boils down to the same thing.  We all love the game and want to play it on great courses.  

Sometimes the discussions on here entertain and provide one with useful information.  Sometimes the discussions are boring.  Sometimes they can get nasty.  I have a high tolerance for this sort because I will give the benefit of the doubt.  It only seems fair considering I don't have the benefit of prior knowledge of folks (I have only met a handful) or body language as clues to intent.

While I acknowledge that most on this site know a hell of a lot more than me (that is why I tune in), I also believe that nobody on this site knows what I like better than I do.  I expect this is the same for many on the site.  So carry on Cary.  You gotta right brutha.

Ciao

Sean

New plays planned for 2024:Winterfield & Alnmouth,

Mike_Sweeney

Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #13 on: July 21, 2005, 05:48:18 AM »
I think the bias is more to great natural sites to begin with rather than minimalism. At Sand Hills there was some talk about how and why C&C moved some dirt to build the 4th green. Me (and I think Huck too), I was looking at the scenery and trying to put the ball in the hole.  ;)

However, you have a point. On Monday, Scott Wood and I played Hudson National. It is a Fazio on a very difficult site. I think he did a great job on a very bad site with great views. However, I did not post any updates as I did not love it compared to Golf Digest raters (#90) and figured no one would care.

Most people here seem to follow the pattern of getting into the site via Ran's Courses By Country, and you probably have your work cut out for you to get Ran out to Colorado rather than England. :)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 05:49:55 AM by Mike Sweeney »

cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #14 on: July 21, 2005, 07:54:43 AM »
Mike:

I have recently played a number of excellent Fazio courses but have not even bothered to comment on them here. They include:

Hudson National
Galloway
Sage Valley

At Sage Valley, I thought the topgraphy was very similiar to Augusta National.

While I was tempted to post about these 3 courses, I just kept quiet.
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

ChasLawler

Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2005, 07:58:25 AM »
Cary,
I trashed Black Rock...and still will, but the photos of Stone Eagle don’t impress me either.

The relative love fest going on in the Stone Eagle thread epitomizes what this website is all about. Put Fazio’s or Engh’s name on that course, and the reactions would probably be quite different.

Shivas is right, but it goes beyond just minimalism.



cary lichtenstein

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2005, 08:04:02 AM »
Cabell:

If you examine the photos of Stone Eagle, it appears there is containment and waterfalls, 2 no no's that because Doak is now doing them have just become brilliant.

I think it will probably be a very good course, but who can really say from a photo until it is played. I loved Black Mesa but Wolf Creek scared me.

Cary
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 08:04:33 AM by cary lichtenstein »
Live Jupiter, Fl, was  4 handicap, played top 100 US, top 75 World. Great memories, no longer play, 4 back surgeries. I don't miss a lot of things about golf, life is simpler with out it. I miss my 60 degree wedge shots, don't miss nasty weather, icing, back spasms. Last course I played was Augusta

corey miller

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2005, 08:20:54 AM »


Cary

You may be able to have a civil discussion about Hudson National in spite of the designer.  Others on this site have spoken highly of it, Mike Sweeney liked it, and everyone ackowledges it was a very difficult site.  Besides, wasn't there a raters gathering there?  Surely that must have produced some ideas on the success of the design?

wsmorrison

Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2005, 08:25:01 AM »
I think GCA.com should be like a wide fairway; there should be many angles of approach.  Some look right and are dead wrong, some look dead wrong and are, some look dead wrong and are not and others look right and are right.  I think it takes a thick skin to stray from the center, whatever that is for this group.  I guess that does include a healthy content of minimalism.  But it is not a dirty word nor should it be an inflamatory word.

My taste or philosophy does include minimalism, but never for its own sake and it certainly is not purity in restoration for its own sake.  

The most appealing golf designs to me are ones which first use the land as best as possible as is.  This is a tribute to nature and to an architect who can use nature in sublime or overtly interesting ways to create interesting play.  But I am all for manufactured where necessary to improve the playability of a site as long as it is made to look natural and fit in with the overall look of the land.  

Most here knew I would get back to Flynn somehow.  He was an excellent user of the land as is for golf.  But he also created a lot of man-made features at the Cascades, Boca Raton, Shinnecock, The Country Club among others and maybe at Merion as well that look natural.  He called himself the "nature faker."  Using nature and imitating nature while making challenging and interesting golf that takes time to understand is the ultimate to me.

But I firmly believe in Tom Paul's theory that there is room in the sport of golf for wide fairways, both literal and figurative.  If architects churned out the same thing over and over there wouldn't be variety and that is a great thing in any art form.  OK, maybe this is a thinly-veiled criticism of a few architects, both classic and modern.  I am glad there is a wide range of viewpoints and I hope they do not feel repressed in any way.  There is no absolute right or wrong and we should embrace variety as long as it is well thought out and executed.

I am also a realist, I think some classic golf courses can be improved, especially given advances in agronomics.  If something isn't done to reign in the ball, then some outstanding courses will remain fun and challenging to the majority of players but not to the game's best players.  Some changes are good for classic courses for all classes of players.  But it should be considered without selling out the architectural intent.  It is a fine line to walk and most have stumbled badly over the line and fallen flat.
Weighing the decision to change should be carefully considered on a course by course basis and not done to keep up with XYZ Country Club down the street.  It is a tough economic time for many golf courses and wise and careful decisions need to be made.  I wouldn't be surprised if, in many cases, the best decision is to do nothing.  But there are probably too many $5 million renovations/restorations that could have been $2 million restorations/renovations.  Likewise there are probably too many $30 million construction costs when a less invasive $10-15 million nature/nature-faker course would play as well and cost less over the long run.
 
I would rather drive a modern Audi if I were racing in one of the 24 hour races like Le Mans but I'd rather look at a Bugatti Type 57 S45 and drive one for fun.  Too many great courses are 1937 Bugattis competing against 2005 Audis.  

I think technology has leaped too far forward and has negatively impacted some of the courses that got me interested in architecture in the first place.  But classic courses were never static, even the best were being tinkered with, some for decades.  I think courses can be updated without losing the architectural intent but it is easy to fail at it and there are far more failures than successes.

Maybe Flynn was right.  There should be a select group of courses built that are for major championship play in order to maintain the integrity of classic designs and not burden memberships with trying to grasp the brass ring of hosting a major championship and spend inordinate amounts of money and bastardizing their courses while trying to do so.  I only say this because of the numerous examples of opportunities to do good restorations and redesigns that were ill-conceived.  It is a lack of talent and understanding by the teams involved which include the clubs and architects.

Now, why do some of us appreciate Tom Doak, Coore and Crenshaw, Hanse and others?  I guess different people feel differently, but I appreciate their talent to build natural and natural looking courses that provide interesting play and a long learning curve.  I like the fact that they aren't out there building 7,500 yard plus courses and doing just what the owner wants (as Nicklaus said in the latest Links article) but helping to maintain a connection to the traditions of the sport and leading by example.  This is courageous and something to be admired, sadly there's little of that these days.
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 09:10:22 AM by Wayne Morrison »

Jim Franklin

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2005, 08:28:18 AM »
Cary -

I loved Sage Valley and would have enjoyed a thread on it. The topography is very similar to that other course to its south and I enjoyed it very much.

Then again, I loved Jim Engh's Pradera too. But again, I thought Greywalls in Marquete was fantastic too. What can I say, I must be a Huckaby wannabe ;D.
Mr Hurricane

Craig Van Egmond

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2005, 08:33:54 AM »

Yes, their is a very vocal group of people on this site who subscribe to a very narrow view of golf architecture: everything was better in the old days and minimal is always best.

Its unfortunate because there are a lot of fantastic golf courses being built right now, by a lot of archie's that don't get much press.

I have never played any Engh courses and I hope to someday, but if someone declares a course a TOP 10 in the US or World then they should expect some feedback.

Keep posting about new courses, some of us like hearing about them.

Yes Tom Doak does have quite the faithful following here, but he also participates here and in the  past has been quite gracious with sharing his time with some of the participants here. It also helps that the guy is building some great courses at the moment.

But other Archies come on here also: I finally played a Brauer course this year and if I am ever in a area where I can play a Mike Young, Kelly Blake Moran, Ian Andrew, Rod Whitman or a Jim Engh course I will. And I might never of heard of them without this website.  

paul cowley

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #21 on: July 21, 2005, 08:44:31 AM »
hear hear Wayne, well written......I now want to request the the first autographed copy of THE BOOK, if you could please.....and if [a big IF], I am able to absorb its contents fully, I might just then move on to the book jacket or preface of that person who has taken such a hold on a certain friend of yours ;)
« Last Edit: July 21, 2005, 01:12:36 PM by paul cowley »
paul cowley...golf course architect/asgca

Jim_Kennedy

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #22 on: July 21, 2005, 09:04:15 AM »
Cary,
The last paragraph of the home page says a lot to me:
 
Quote
While golf course architecture is a subjective art form, several key tenets have stood the test of time. These are explored in an effort to understand why some courses are more fascinating than others, and to understand why such courses continually beckon for a return game.

Hope you enjoy GolfClubAtlas.com.

Happy golfing,

Ran Morrissett

I don't think it's minimalism that's argued about, it's the "key tenets". When these are forgotten, whether on a new course or an old, it opens the door for criticism. If there are preferred architects on this site they are so identified as ones who include "key tenets" when building golf courses.  

 
"I never beat a well man in my life" - Harry Vardon

BCrosby

  • Karma: +0/-0
Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #23 on: July 21, 2005, 09:10:14 AM »
Seems to me there is a pretty simple reason why GCA leans towards minimalist designs.

It's because the minimalists are winning the debate. On the merits, I believe. To a diverse, bright group of people, one side appears to have the more convincing case on the architectural issues of the day. That's just the way things go sometimes in debates. (Happens in politics all the time. There are winners and losers.)

That doesn't mean the debates should end. I'm sure they won't.

The real (and troubling) sign of desperation is when people call other people holding different views brain-dead toadies for a particular architect.

Bob

wsmorrison

Re:Has GCA become just a website for devotees of minimialism?
« Reply #24 on: July 21, 2005, 09:19:31 AM »
Thanks, Paul.  I hope to see you on your next visit up here.  Sounds like some interesting stuff happening.  I hope your summer is going well.

Bobsy,

I agree that the minimalists/naturalists have a more convincing argument and it is hard to win a debate against that model--on many levels.  In these economic times it is even more powerful.  

It just doesn't make sense to buy enough ground for 7,500+ yard course and obliterate the land without regard to natural features in place of a completely man-made golf course built at exhorbitant expense, especially one that often is neither fun nor interesting over the long run.

Thankfully there is great work being done today in many different architectural camps.  Time will tell which model passes the test of time.

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