[Matt_Ward]

I played Bethpage Black this passt weekend and frankly I was miffed on this campaign to lengthen the course to inane proportions.

Take the 5th hole -- the new championship tee pushes the hole to over 490 yards. Frankly, what was wrong with the old championship tee used in the '02 US Open?

Ditto the silly new tee at the 9th. The hole is 416 yards and then new tee pushes things back a full 40-50 yards. Now the cut-off hill-side becomes a problematic option for the likes of a Mike Weir or David Toms.

The Black has more than sufficient length and there is an overabundance of long par-4's. What's missing is the finesse hole(s) that can counterbalance the perception that is becoming more and more imbedded that the Black is nothing more than a gorilla course.

The course I fell in love with doesn't need more length -- trying to add some sort of solid short par-4 for each side would be the way to go. One can start with the two likely candidates the 2nd and the closing hole.

In addition, it's time for the powers that be to widen the course to allow for the playing angles to come into play. Some of the fairways are no wider than 27 yards and when you have to hit driver full-out from the back tees the issue becomes one of survival rather than shotmaking.

Make no mistake about it -- I am big time lover of the course but the Black needs to move away from the school of thought that Augusta has followed that reloading with more length and more penal aspects will somehow add to the reputation of the course. In my mind -- that's a deadend street and not worthy of being followed.

[ChasLawler]

Matt,
I've never played the Black, but what is stopping them from widening the fairways right now?

If they want to shrink them for the US Open - then so be it, but at the least - wouldn't it speed up play to give the regulars a little more room out there...not to mention make it a whole lot more enjoyable.

Would widening the fairways be as simple as gradually cutting the faiways wider, or is the rough a different type of grass than the fairways?

[Thomas_Brown]

Matt - Can't imagine you complaining about any track's length.  

Re: 5, this one was necessary.
In the 1980's it was on GD's top 100 hole list and waxed poetical about.  In 2002, it was 3 wood off of the tee to carry the obsolete bunker on the right.  Hopefully, this brings the angle back into play.

Agree on #9 however.

[corey miller]

It is more important for the powers that be at Bethpage to present a monster course with six hour round to the 20 hdcp masses.  Probably helps their "ratings" though.  

[Geoffrey_Walsh]

Matt,

I have no problem with the new back tee on #5.  It will finally bring the cross bunker back into play for pros at the Open, restoring the original strategy of this wonderful hole.  I can remember playing the hole in 2003 with three high school players and all of  them flew it past the cross bunker by 20-30 yds, with the longest of them hitting it down by where the USGA places the crosswalk.

However, I do agree with your comments regarding #9 and the need for a good short par 4.  On #9, there is no need to lengthen that hole, and it does become very awkward for the shorter tour player who has to deal with the slope in the fairway.  I was unaware they moved that tee back further… aren’t they landlocked by the equestrian track and were forced to buy property just to put in the tee for the 2002 Open?  On your second point, I think #2 is the most likely candidate, but I’d have to give some thought on what could be done given the topography of the hole.

[Geoffrey Childs]

Cabell

Everyone seems to want to play a "US Open course" under what they actually believe are US Open-like conditions. That they believe the conditions are similar is as silly as is the parks department keeping the narrow fairways and modest rough.  It takes away many of the ideal playing angles which are currently in the rough. That's how to trick up the course to get higher scores.

Matt-

Do what I do- smile when you view the new tees while walking up a set of tees. Who cares if they make #5 600 yards as long as they don't change the course at all in front of those tees. Let them use them once every 10 years.

PS- thanks for helping the NY State treasury with your out of state fees  

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Both those changes were there when I played the course a year ago. Frankly, I thought they were general knowledge now.

Could the narrower fairways et al be a result of budgeting? Not sure if you've played them, but the other courses there have been getting A LOT of love.

The Red Course (for example) is now, IMO, the equal of the Black.

[Mike_Cirba]

Do what I do- smile when you view the new tees while walking up a set of tees. Who cares if they make #5 600 yards as long as they don't change the course at all in front of those tees. Let them use them once every 10 years.

Yes, but Geoff....how does one do that at the new 14th hole?  (from the sounds of the new, multi-layered, multi-pin positioned 47 yard long green!)  

Of course, each and every hole should be a ball-buster.  How else could the USGA protect par?  

[Geoffrey Childs]

Mike

I have not seen the "new" 14th yet.  I plan on revisiting the Red course first anyway. Last time I played there I had a full head of hair and a mustache  

I did see a picture and it sure looked like teh green was just tweaked a bit- nothing very dramatic-  I do agree, however, that its a bad turn of events if they are trying to "modernize" BB for US Opens.

[peter_mcknight]

Mr Ward:

Isn't/Wasn't there discussions to lengthen the 4th by about 20-30 yards and the 12th to approximately 515 yards as well?

Also, if I remember correctly, the USGA didn't use the extreme back tee on hole 9 in 2002--it was played at 418 yards and the back tee is 435 yards.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

I think I'm going to need to set up a GCA day at The Red and The Black!

[Frank Pasquale]

Mr Ward:

Isn't/Wasn't there discussions to lengthen the 4th by about 20-30 yards and the 12th to approximately 515 yards as well?

Also, if I remember correctly, the USGA didn't use the extreme back tee on hole 9 in 2002--it was played at 418 yards and the back tee is 435 yards.

The new back tee was not there in 2002... they played it at 418 in 2002... it looks like the new tee is about 40-50 yards back.  

I would be interested to know if they use the new tees on 5 and 9 for the NY State Open, which begins tomorrow.

[Matt_Ward]

Gents:

If one were to examine the scoring average for the 5th from the '02 Open you will find that the hole didn't surrender anywhere near a ton of birdies. I can understand the thought that a new extreme tee will bring back to life the nature of the course but that still evades what I said at the outset -- how many long par-4's are needed at the Black?

The new 9th tee was not built for the '02 Open -- it has come on board since that event. What is the real purpose? The only aim is to give even more of a boost to the players that can carry the ball 290+ yards. The hillside now becomes an issue when any wind confronts the player.

I also think it's time for the folks to have some creative ideas that go beyond just length for lengths sake for the '09 Open.

Why not play the 7th hole as a par-5 for two rounds and for two other rounds play it as a par-4/

Why is the silly rough cut still present on the downslope of the 6th hole? Why not allow players to get the advantage of a forward release if they opt for the aggressive play from the tee?

It's also well overdue for the fairways to be widened -- why the need to keep them in the 25-30 yard areas.

The Black has enough of muscle -- it needs a bit more creativity to seduce and beguile the player. The lame 2nd and the inane 18th hole need a major overhaul. Make the 18th into a driveable par-4 at the end and the '09 event will clearly provide for the kind of ending befitting such a grand layout.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

Matt-

 If I'm not mistaken, has chipping area been added to several holes, including 10?  

If this is the case, what's your take on it?  I personally like that option, rather than miss 10 green (as many do, considering it's long iron in) and have to hack out.  

[Kyle Harris]

Gents:

If one were to examine the scoring average for the 5th from the '02 Open you will find that the hole didn't surrender anywhere near a ton of birdies. I can understand the thought that a new extreme tee will bring back to life the nature of the course but that still evades what I said at the outset -- how many long par-4's are needed at the Black?

The new 9th tee was not built for the '02 Open -- it has come on board since that event. What is the real purpose? The only aim is to give even more of a boost to the players that can carry the ball 290+ yards. The hillside now becomes an issue when any wind confronts the player.

I also think it's time for the folks to have some creative ideas that go beyond just length for lengths sake for the '09 Open.

Why not play the 7th hole as a par-5 for two rounds and for two other rounds play it as a par-4/

Why is the silly rough cut still present on the downslope of the 6th hole? Why not allow players to get the advantage of a forward release if they opt for the aggressive play from the tee?

It's also well overdue for the fairways to be widened -- why the need to keep them in the 25-30 yard areas.

The Black has enough of muscle -- it needs a bit more creativity to seduce and beguile the player. The lame 2nd and the inane 18th hole need a major overhaul. Make the 18th into a driveable par-4 at the end and the '09 event will clearly provide for the kind of ending befitting such a grand layout.

A better option for 18 is to use the Red's finish... sooo awesome.  

[Robert Mercer Deruntz]

In 2002 the 5th was downwind all week.  It is 274 to carry the bunker from the old back tee.  Last year it played into the wind on two of the days.  Thankfully, we did not play from the new tee.  Into the wind, this is about as hard of a tee shot as possible--the stupid fescue fingers in the bunker are probable double or worse, sand a possible fried egg, and the left rough is usually wet to moist because of the tree coverage--and did I mention that they fertilize the hell out of the rough!  Into the wind, most players tend to take too little off the bunker and hack out from the left rough and hit a wedge onto the green.

[Matt_Ward]

Robert:

You are spot on regarding the factor of the wind / re: the new extension to the 5th tee.

If the hole plays downwind with the prevailing then the extreme back tee might have some logic to it. The Black has plenty of long par-4's already in the mixture -- I mean the likes of the 10th, 12th and 15th hole are a trio of very demanding and uncompromising holes.

The Black needs to think "outside the box" by inserting some holes that require precision no less than sheer power.

The 2nd and 18th would be good places to start.

Doug:

I've seen the chipping areas but frankly they were added as an afterthought. The main issue with the 10th is the high demand it places upon the player who misses the fairway even by the slightest of margins.

Widening the fairways to 40-50 yards prior to the '09 Open would make the course more "user-friendly" without compromsing in any way the strategic elements that underscore the presentation of the Black.

[PThomas]

 a driveable 18th at the Open - I agree that would be cool Matt!

as long as they "do it right" ---unlike the 18th at Congressional when it was  a par 3...I have no problems with 18 as a 3par, but I thought COngressional's was dull, not very challenging, etc....

the only person I remember going into the water there was...Tiger!!

[EAF]

Thanks for the report on the current state of the Black. Prior to the renovation of BB, the 10th hole was a short par 4 that played as originally designed because of the size green. If the USGA ever wants (doubtful) another shorter par 4, that's the hole to shorten by moving the tees up to the current white tee position which used to be the old blue tee. There is no need to touch the 2nd hole. The 2nd has always played as an 8 or 9 iron approach for the scratch player.

I have always liked the 18th hole and think it is fine the way it is now. Looks and par can be decieving. The 18th does challenge a player to decide how much to risk off the tee and the uphill second makes it hard to judge for a birdie chance. I have seen many a good round end with a bogey or worse on 18.

The new 5th hole will/should be used if the hole is downwind. I want to see the best play into that green from 170-185, not from the crosswalk at 125.

Widen the fairways?? "Fogetaboutit", the good old playable angles are gone with "Host of the 2002, US Open."  

[Matt_Ward]

EAF:

The 2nd is a simple and very boring hole. The green is a flat disc and fails to enhance the experience in playing the Black. A major makeover for the hole would be appropriate and long overdue.

The 18th is a big time dud. The changes made by Rees didn't do much except for the bunker complex to the right of the green.

The professionals do not drive the ball deep enough to take on the elementary bunker complexes that flank the fairways. In so many ways it looks like the predictable right and left bunker scheme that Rees father used at Oakland Hills.

Guys like Tiger routinely hit iron off the tee to eliminate the bunkers and then followed with a pro forma iron to the green. Ho-hum -- boring puhleeeze.

Change the hole to make a much more exciting finish. The 18th at the Black could be way beyond the lackluster closer that it is.

[Doug Braunsdorf]

EAF:

The 2nd is a simple and very boring hole. The green is a flat disc and fails to enhance the experience in playing the Black. A major makeover for the hole would be appropriate and long overdue.

The 18th is a big time dud. The changes made by Rees didn't do much except for the bunker complex to the right of the green.

The professionals do not drive the ball deep enough to take on the elementary bunker complexes that flank the fairways. In so many ways it looks like the predictable right and left bunker scheme that Rees father used at Oakland Hills.

Guys like Tiger routinely hit iron off the tee to eliminate the bunkers and then followed with a pro forma iron to the green. Ho-hum -- boring puhleeeze.

Change the hole to make a much more exciting finish. The 18th at the Black could be way beyond the lackluster closer that it is.

Matt-

  The 2nd hole at BSP isn't that bad.  A player can use the birdie or par there, and I like the idea of ebb and flow to the holes--a relatively easy start followed by an ass-kicking most of the rest of the way through.

  Like 14.  Yes, it could be a little tougher--maybe slightly redesigned to bring the large greenside bunker more into play for the tee shot, or changing the nature fo the green complex to direct a mishit approach into the bunker, but it does provide a respite before the final turn of the screw when one crosses the road.  

  What do you think could be done to 18 to make it more challenging?  Kyle Harris and I discussed a few alternatives a few weeks ago out there.  The thing is, the natural topography in the immediate area is basically flat--think about 1 Red, 18 Black, 1 Black, 1 Green-all relatively flat fairways.  

Some of my thoughts:
-Angled cross bunkering/cross hazard similar to a "reef" hole, tempting the golfer to bite off a lot to have a shorter club in?   Slightly reposition the green to encourage the use of angles?

  Kyle Harris had said the 18th on Red was very good...the fairway twists a bit, and the fairway is not level ~160 yards out from the green, where both of us hit drives.  Kyle, am I correct?

[Kyle Harris]

Yes, the fairway around the bunkers on 18 Red is quite sloped. It's the base of the hill that 17 sits on top of as well as most of the Blue Course.

Also part of the same hill that 1 Red's Green sits on.

I feel that Red's 18 is a better finish than the Black's.

[Matt_Ward]

Doug:

You need to understand that the motif of the Black is about its grand scale and the muscular nature of so many of its holes.

The Black needs a few "change of pace" holes -- it cannot and should not be the equivalent of a Nolan Ryan pitcher who simply throws 100 MPH heat at batters.

The 2nd is simply vanilla. I am not suggesting making the hole another demanding long par-4. Quite the contrary -- make the hole more interesting by having a unique putting surface that challenges the pros beyond the big circular disc that only inspires yawns today.

Also, the bunker scheme at #2 may capture the likes of Joe Sixpack but for the world class player it's nothing more than a set decoration. Better integration of the bunkering scheme is needed. Let me also state that one doesn't need more yardage -- a hole in the range of 350-375 yards would work just fine.

The 18th needs to be completely different. A driveable par-4 that ends the round would keep the viewer in front of the screen. I laugh out loud when people complain about the closer at TOC but it serves its purpose when contrasted against the likes of The Road Hole. The 18th at BB needs to be something beyond a pro forma closer that it is today.

[Kyle Harris]

Matt,

Not sure if I agree with your thoughts re: the second. For the "easy" hole on the golf course, it certainly fits in with golf on a "grand scale" as you state he motif of the Black is. The first time I played it I was struck by the valley the fairway sits in, and the green sitting like a fortress above. Yes, I parred it both times quite handily, but the scale and appearance certainly mesh with the other holes on the black.

[Mike_Golden]

Matt,

I completely disagree with you regarding #2 at BPB-I've always loved that hole.  You need to hit a strategic draw in order to have a level lie for the approach shot and, even though the green is pretty flat it's still a blind second shot that makes it very difficult to get the ball close to the hole.

The Black is the Black is the Black.  They can do whatever they want to lengthen it for the pros, but it will always be, for me, an incredible golf course from the white tees playing at about 6600 yards. Tee to green, far and away, the best course I've ever played.  Of course, I'm prejudiced, I suppose.

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