The Evangelist of Golf / George Bahto

[Tim Weiman]

George Bahto:

Thank you very much for all the time and effort you obviously put into this book. Simply put, it's a treasure.

I agree with Pat Mucci. What a wonderful gift it will make.

[George Pazin]

How awesome is the photo of the 6th at NGLA on page 98? I thought that alone was worth the price of the book.

If only I could somehow convince Patrick to post a similar photo of #1...

[Patrick_Mucci]

George Bahto,

Yes, it would be a big green, but it is a par 3, at about 170.

And, the pin positions you would pick up on the right side would be spectacular.

[von Hayek]

Aboout the 13th green:

I asked Karl about this last summer. He knew all about the former dimensions, but said it was impractical. Addtional groundscrew would be necessary because of the massive increase in square footage. Also, prep time in the mornings would be lengthened.

Of course, Karl has departed....

[Patrick_Mucci]

von Hayek,

You may recall that the rear portion of the 11th green was reclaimed a few years ago, as was the front of the 10th green.  With NGLA being Charles Blair MacDonald's masterpiece and the golf world recognizing its brilliance, its genius, why wouldn't the club want to restore that green as Charles Blair MacDonald originally designed it ?  Just like the club did on # 10 and # 11.

Is # 13 green larger or smaller than greens # 3, # 6, # 7,
# 10 ?

I can't imagine the additional cost to the budget to maintain an expanded 13th green as having much of an impact at NGLA

It would seem to be a worthy, lasting endeavor for NGLA and all of GOLF.

[Joel_Stewart]

I've been reading my copy and still am confused about 2 holes.  

The book seems to indicate that the 17th has changed especially after they put in the new gate.  Is this hole original and after I played there a few months ago question if the 7 saucer type bunkers on the front right of the green are original.

The other hole which I love the picture of the original green is #15 on page 125.  The original square green looks much more interesting then the current green.  George, any chance they could restore this green or is it too severe?

[George Bahto]

Joel:

It is very hard to follow what CB did at National - he fiddled with the course for over 25 years.

Those little bunkers just over the sand hill on 17 are original - they are there to catch the guy who thinks he can just feather a short shot over the sand hill in order to stay on the puttin surface. Remember he kept the greens really firm and that green certainly would not hold a shot very well if you were over to the right off the tee. When the green is soft the player knows he can land the ball well into the green and it will stay on. That's my take on it.

I don't think 15-green was ever changed from the original. I have seen expense records from the early days and and that indicated lots of $$ spent on the 8th, the 6th, 9th, 18th, 17th but never anything on 15. It could be where the picture was taken from (i've taken from there also) and it may also be that there was so little vegitation in that early photo that it just looks more severe. I've wondered about that also - the old picture is awesome.

[Brad Klein]

George, Gib,

fine job on the book. I also think Clock Tower Press deserves some kudos, as this is their initial public offering, so to speak, and it bodes well for the press that they got the book in such good form and that they managed to get it out to stores, inc. Borders, along with some other recent architecture titles that they now control.

It's not a great market for us writers, since the same crazed fanatics buy all of these books., But for us eaders, these last few years have been very good, I dare say. Hats off to Bahto and Papazian for adding to that trove.

[David_C]

Fine book, but the photos are poor quality and disappointing.  

Compare them to a book with professional photos:  Classic Links of England, Scotland, Wales and Ireland (Brian Morgan)

[Gib_Papazian]

David,

I read your post and went home and examined the photos and don't see where anything is of poor quality. Can you be specific?

Just out of curiosity.

[Tim Weiman]

Gib:

I don't exactly agree with David C, but understand his comments. The Evanelist text is a treasure, a work we waited for a long time and weren't at all disappointed with when it finally arrived.

As for the photography, I might have made a slightly different decision when compiling the book. I see nothing wrong with what was included, but wonder if also including some limited work by the likes of a Joann Dost, Larry Lambrecht or John Henebry might have made sense. Of course, this would have increased the publishing costs, but the argument in favor is that The Evangelist is such a landmark book that it would have been worth it.

While I think NGLA was well documented, some professional photos of say Yale, for example, might have been a nice touch. It's a judgement call. I love the old black and white pictures included. They give a sense of going back to CB's day. But, the course is so rich with great stuff, I might have included a couple more modern pictures other than just the 9th and 13th.

Being one of what Brad Klein calls, the "crazed fanatics", I want to thank you and George once again. I'll enjoy the book for many years to come.

[Gib_Papazian]

Tim,
Interesting point. I cannot take credit for any of the stylistic decisions or photo work as my contribution was organizing and editing/rewriting text and captions only.

In defense of Clocktower however, this was already an expensive book to compile and believe it or not, there is still enormous amount of unused material that will go into the 2nd and 3rd books.

One thing about this subject is that there seems to be no bottom. Even today, George is still uncovering all sorts of new information and photos.

[DavidC]

Gib Papazian

In the general (NGLA, Piping Rock, Yale) the photos are shot in poor light and look grainy (very few, low light shots).  Not terrible, but clearly shot by an amateur.  Look at Larry Labrecht's low light photo on P 246 and I think the contrast is obvious.

"America's Linksland" which has the majority of its photos taken by Labrecht looks more polished from the photography standpoint.

The drawings are excellent in The Evangelist.

[Tim Weiman]

Gib/David:

For perspective, I would refer you to Paul Daley's first two efforts: Links Golf and The Sandbelt.

I really liked Paul's first publishing effort with The Links. Maybe because it included lots of stuff on Ireland. But, I know people criticized the book for "amateur" photos. I came out thinking Paul did the right thing, not just from a cost point of view, but also because the "amateur" photos seemed to make the book more serious, I thought.

Obviously, Paul went in the opposite direction with The Sandbelt. The David Scaletti pictures were fabulous and appropriate: so little has been done to document Melbourne area courses.

Each book is something different requiring its own judgment call. Aren't we thankful that Geoff Shackelford stuck with black and white pictures in his Cypress Point book?

For The Evangelist (or its successors) a balance of old b/w, current amateur and maybe a few professional shots seems about right.

[Paul Richards]

Just got my copy last night.

Can't wait to look through it!

[Gib_Papazian]

David_C,

Okay, fair enough. You may send me your book and I'll refund your money personally. . . . . I'm short a copy or two anyway.

George and I had discussed purchasing a "wayback machine" to get a live photo of Macdonald and Raynor discussing how to get the Redan just right, but the cost of each book would have been $10,000 . . . . . .

All bullsh*t aside, it is the angles that the photos were taken from that is relevant, not the bells and whistles. IMNSHO George understands the precise look he wanted to convey in order to highlight the strategic arrangements.

To me, I would rather have an "amateur" shoot a photo and then illustrate his point with a drawing than some of the glossy photography I have seen that leaves famous holes somewhat unrecognizable because the composition is framed more for beauty than to educate the reader.

Just my opinion.. . . . . but I'm only the editor. 

[Paul Richards]

On first glance last night, I couldn't help but notice that the book was very reminiscent of "Discovering Donald Ross."

It looks great!

[DaveC]

Gib P

No need to get so defensive, a bit of constructive criticism and  

Good photography is important, the angles are good but getting the right light isn't difficult, it just takes time.  Look at Ran's profile of NGLA, an amateur photographer who got good light and interesting angles.  So it needn't cost much either.

Would you say the photos of Biarritz holes at Yale and Piping Rock are good photos?

[George Pazin]

Regarding the photographs in this wonderful book, I was suitably impressed. I don't think the comparisons to Donald Steel's books are fair, but I will make them nonetheless.

In DS's book Classic Links, the photos are indeed probably more stirring. However, they are predominantly of dramatic links features, such as closeups of dunes or wide expanses of the roling landscape. I LOVE those pictures, but I don't find them especially helpful from the perspective of golf course architecture - ie. I have a hard time noticing golf features.

In The Evangelist of Golf, by contrast, I think GB made more of an effort to capture architectural features, rather than broad shots of the landscape at NGLA, etc. Since I'm more of a GCA junkie, this helped me get my fix, so I loved these photos as well.

Regarding specific photos mentioned above at Yale & Piping Rock, I think a Biarritz is a really difficult concept to illustrate from the tee. At Yale, where the tee shot is so dramatic across the pond, I think it's almost impossible to get a good shot. I didn't fully understand the concept of the Biarritz till someone posted a side angle closeup of the green.

As I mentioned on a previous post, I think the photo on p. 98 of the 6th (Short) Hole at NGLA, GB did a wonderful job capturing the contours of the green, something quite difficult to do.

[Chris_Clouser]

Gib or George,

When are the other two books estimated to be published?  If I'm right, I believe one is a history of NGLA and the other is a bio on Raynor, correct?

Do you have titles?

chris

[George Bahto]

Chris - the other two books will be about a yr or less apart. The last book is not all Raynor but, for the most part, it will detail the founding of and course reviews of all the course the 3 men built - CB / SR and the Banks-guy. Lots of stuff good there. Drawings/sketches etc, lot of old photos - oh and yes, probably more amateur pictures.

Actually, I've not decided on a title of the final (and I mean final) book and any ideas for a title by you fellas would be appreciated.

[Charles_P.]

I just was at Amazon.com and noticed there are no reviews yet!  For those of you who have finished reading the book, do George a favor and post a review there.

[redanman]

I have received and peroused my copy.  It is a long awaited treasure.  It is one of those books that just flows on and on until it's nearly gone!  Can't wait for the companion volumes.

Great job, Georgey.  Two thumbs way up.

BillyV

[TEPaul]

redanman:

Is 'perousing' your copy of the "Evangelist of Golf" just a far more aggressive and more animated way of perusing your copy of the "Evangelist of Golf"?

[Mike_Sweeney]

George,

I am really enjoying the book, currently reading piece by piece. I hope you are there on Jan 11th so as to sign my copy.

On National, when they built the road to the "new" clubhouse, was there ever any thought to bringing it in off of Sebonac i.e. through Bayberry ?